SFD.pl - Sportowe Forum Dyskusyjne

Utrata tłuszczu - demitologizujemy aeroby

temat działu:

Odżywianie i Odchudzanie

słowa kluczowe: , , ,

Ilość wyświetleń tematu: 279932

Nowy temat Wyślij odpowiedź
...
Napisał(a)
Usunięty przez Tyka za pkt 4 regulaminu
Początkujący
Szacuny 0 Napisanych postów 13 Na forum 19 lat Przeczytanych tematów 115

Pij Mleko Będziesz Wielki ;o) Bierz Mete Będziesz Większy :o)

...
Napisał(a)
Zgłoś naruszenie
Ekspert
Szacuny 11148 Napisanych postów 51564 Wiek 30 lat Na forum 24 lat Przeczytanych tematów 57816
obawiam sie że masz wiedzę przeterminowaną i gównianą, polecam nieco poczytać

możesz zacząć od tekstu poniżej

a za następne pyskowania dostaniesz bana

The difference between cardio training and aerobic training

This is important to understand. Cardio refers to any exercise in which the heart and lungs are involved. This could be jogging, running, sprinting, swimming, circuit training etc. Quite simply – if you are elevating your heart rate and respiration rate, you are doing some form of cardiovascular work.

Aerobic training refers to a state in which the cardiovascular work is performed. Aerobic literally means ‘with oxygen’. It is a relatively low intensity state of exercise that can be maintained almost indefinitely (as long as oxygen is being supplied to the working muscles, in the required amounts – the exercise can be continued. This is aerobic training.

All aerobic training is cardiovascular training. Not all cardiovascular training is aerobic. Hopefully that makes sense.

Steady State Aerobics – why it hasn’t worked

Let’s think of all the reasons steady state aerobic training is supposed to burn fat.

1) It burns calories. Good. I’ll buy that. How does it burn calories? Because the muscles are hard at work and demand extra oxygen to help them continue working. Hmmm. There are a ton of activities such as weight training, sprinting, sleeping, talking watching TV that ALSO burn calories by requiring work from the muscles. So no extra points for aerobic training.

2) The fat burning zone. Nope. Sorry – it doesn’t exist. The fat burning zone is a concept that the body burns a greater amount of fat at lower intensity aerobic exercise than it does at higher intensities. This is a misinterpretation. It’s true that the body burns a greater percentage of fat at lower intensities than at higher intensities, but taking this to its logical conclusion – the body will burn a greater amount of fat as a percentage lying on the couch than doing anything else right? And we know how good lying on the couch works for fat loss. It’s the “as a percentage” line. At lower intensities the body may burn 50% of the calories from fat, while at higher intensities it may only burn 35% of calories from fat. BUT at higher intensities you burn way more total calories, and more fat calories overall than you do at lower intensities. Think about a real world example – are sprinters (running 10-20s) fatter than marathon runners (2-2.5 hours of running). No. Actually sprinters carry less body fat than distance runners due to their muscle mass.

3) Aerobics makes your body an “efficient fat burning machine”. True but this isn’t a desirable response. The ONLY tissue that burns fat in the body is muscle. Yes – aerobic training does demand work from the muscles, but not as much as other activities. Aerobic training doesn’t require the muscle tissue to stay around either. Aerobic training makes muscles more efficient at using fat (don’t get excited – if your car became more efficient at burning gas – you’d be using less of it).
So if muscle is the only tissue that burns fat, and aerobic training makes it smaller and more efficient at burning fat, then essentially you are creating a smaller, more efficient fat burning machine. That’s not effective.

4) Aerobic training raises your metabolism. I’ll cover this in more detail later but the short answer is no it doesn’t. Metabolism is largely a function of how much muscle you carry. As aerobics does nothing to even maintain muscle, never mind build muscle, it will do nothing to contribute to raising your metabolism at rest. Sure, you’ll burn calories while you’re doing it, but will you burn any more at rest as a result of doing aerobics? No. And as you’ll find out later, you may actually burn less.

The adaptation conundrum

The body literally adapts to anything we attempt to do by responding in the reverse manner. Don’t drink any water? Your body tries to retain water. Does weight training build muscle? No it doesn’t. What actually occurs is a breakdown of muscle tissue and the body ADAPTS by building muscle.

So if you burn a ton of calories doing aerobic training, that same body adapts to aerobic exercise by slowing your metabolism and allowing your body to store more fat. Same body – same system.

The biggest problem with aerobic training is that you get better at it. In weight training, as you get better, you add more weight or more reps and there is literally no finish line. In aerobic training, the work required to run 5 miles will become less and less as you get fitter. So to continue to improve you either go further (do more work for the same amount of calories) or you run it faster. Going further kind of defeats the purpose. Is there much joy in running 40 mins to burn the calories you once burned in 30 mins? And going faster involves the same problem. Eventually, the new speed becomes too easy for you and you have to go more intense to get the same benefits. Now as I mentioned, there is no end point with weight training. However there is an end point with aerobic training. You will reach an intensity eventually that will be the end of the aerobic zone. Quite simply going any harder will send your body into the anaerobic zone. So at some point you’re not doing aerobics any more. So, if you have to stop doing it at some point to get the benefits you seek why not do anaerobic work to begin with?

Metabolism

Your metabolism or your metabolic rate is what determines how many calories you burn each day – or more importantly for the purposes of this book – how many you need to maintain your current weight. Your metabolism is quite simply how many calories you burn in a typical day. It is affected and controlled by your thyroid, and is largely a factor of your muscle mass. To break it down further – every pound of muscle you put on requires approximately 50 calories per day to maintain. This doesn’t take into account the calories burned in training to develop that muscle, or the calories burned in training to keep that muscle – these 50 calories are just the amount needed by that muscle to just sit there.

So, one pound of muscle on your body requires approximately 50 calories per day. This equates to 18,250 calories per year or the equivalent of a little over 5lbs of fat. So you can see that gaining and maintaining even five pounds of muscle in your training program, will assist in burning off over 26lbs of fat over the coming year.

SO in order to really get the athletic look we want to develop, the key is not just how many calories we can burn during exercise, it’s how many calories we can force the body to burn all the time. Raising your metabolism is the real key in long term fat loss and physique change.

Caloric expenditure

In order to lose body fat, you must burn off more calories than you consume. Despite the proliferation of diets- low carbohydrate, low fat, high protein, high carbohydrate etc this simple rule remains. I don’t want to talk about nutrition here as this is more than adequately covered in another chapter in this book, but suffice to say the caloric balance is still important.

I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve heard people say “I barely eat anything – I eat like a bird and I still gain weight”. Oh really. You are eating fewer calories than you need and your body is gaining weight? Impossible. This violates the law of thermodynamics. Usually it’s a case of not really being aware of how much you are actually eating. Because let’s face it – if your body was capable of producing body weight from nothing, then we better get you sent over to NASA or UNICEF immediately – with magical genes like yours, we might just be able to solve the Third World’s hunger problem.

Fat loss is all about caloric expenditure. We must burn more calories than we take in, and the real key to doing this, as mentioned before, is not aerobic training, which will burn calories while you are doing it, its anaerobic training, which burns calories while you are doing it AND increases the calories burned for hours afterwards. In the case of weight training, if we build muscle and keep it, that burns calories forever more. Even when you sleep!

The key with anaerobic training is what is known as EPOC. Anaerobic exercise burns a ton of calories while you are performing it. However, the metabolism remains elevated following this type exercise. This was, at one time, referred to as the oxygen debt, but is now referred to as the excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC). The recovery of the metabolic rate back to pre-exercise levels can require several minutes for light exercise (aerobic training), several hours for very heavy exercise (anaerobic cardio training), and up to 12 to 24 hours or even longer for prolonged, exhaustive exercise (interval training or circuit weight training).

The EPOC can add up to a substantial energy expenditure when totaled over the entire period of recovery. If the oxygen consumption following exercise remains elevated by an average of only 50 ml/min or 0.05 liter/min, this will amount to approximately 0.25 kcal/min or 15 kcal/hr. If the metabolism remains elevated for five hours, this would amount to an additional expenditure of 75 kcal that would not normally be included in the calculated total energy expenditure for that particular activity. This major source of energy expenditure, which occurs during recovery, but is directly the result of the exercise bout, is frequently ignored in most calculations of the energy cost of various activities. If the individual in this example exercised five days per week, he or she would have expended 375 kcal, or lost the equivalent of approximately 0.1 pounds of fat in one week, or 1.0 pounds in 10 weeks, just from the additional caloric expenditure during the recovery period alone. This is the key to maximizing the return on your exercise investment.


The next obvious idea is – if you trained the next day while your metabolism is still elevated, will we have an even higher return – is the effect accumulative? Is the whole greater than the sum of the parts?

Science has yet to give us an answer, however in the real world, I think so. I have seen amazing results with my clients using this exact protocol.

Interval training

So is there a better way of performing cardio workouts to prevent these adaptations, and rapidly improve fat loss results? Yes. The key is to perform what is known as interval training.

Interval training simply refers to a series of intense activity separated with short rest periods. Through using interval training you are able to exercise at a higher intensity without getting tired. In other words – because we alternate the periods of high intensity work, with periods of lower intensity work – you are able to do much more work in the same time period than you were before.

The beauty of this is as you improve, the work intervals can get harder and harder, and the recovery intervals can be shortened, or performed at a higher speed. In fact, there is no end in site, and no downside to interval training (other than it is really hard).
...
Napisał(a)
Zgłoś naruszenie
Ekspert
Szacuny 11148 Napisanych postów 51564 Wiek 30 lat Na forum 24 lat Przeczytanych tematów 57816
-What Are the Benefits of HIIT?

--Major Increase in Fat Loss

In a study done by Tremblay and other authors, two groups were assigned different training regimens. Group A performed the regular moderate intensity cardio (like jogging or bicycling) for 20 weeks and Group B performed a HIIT routine for 15 weeks. In the end the results of each group were recorded. Group B lost nine times more fat than Group A and in 5 weeks less! (1)

--Increased Lactic Acid Threshold

Lactic acid is that burning sensation you feel when you work a muscle really hard. Lactic acid is a byproduct of the processes your body uses to make your muscles work. When too much lactic acid accumulates in the muscles, the muscles become fatigued. You’re lactic acid threshold is how fast your body can remove the lactic acid in your muscles. When your body can remove lactic acid more efficiently, then you can work the muscles at a higher intensity for a longer period of time before they become fatigued.

--Shorter Workouts

I don’t know about you, but I definitely would rather crank it up a notch and exercise for 4-8 minutes in comparison to staring at the wall in the local gym for 30 minutes to an hour jogging…or performing any other slow, and somewhat boring type of cardio.

-So why does HIIT burn more fat than regular moderate intensity cardio, like jogging?

To put it simply, after your HIIT training session is over with your metabolism explodes and tons of calories are being burned. These calories are being burned because your body must recover from the HIIT workout you just exposed it to (the details as to why exactly this happens are pretty complicated, and would take a long time to explain, so I’ll spare you). Just understand that after the workout, not during the workout, is when the fat is being burnt.

HIIT offers people an extremely effective and, as shown by the study done by Tremblay and other authors, a very fast way to eliminate fat. In addition to this, it can increase your muscle’s resistance to fatigue. Although, probably the best part about this type of training is that you no longer have to spend 30 minutes to an hour at your gym jogging away your life on the treadmill.

Here’s a tip: Personally, I enjoy listening to some type of fast paced music while performing an HIIT workout. Doing this can really increase the intensity of your workout, and similarly, the productivity of it as well. Some type of MP3 player usually works best because they don’t jiggle around very much.

If you decide to take up HIIT training you may want to check it out with your doctor first. This type of training is incredibly effective, but it is also very intense.

References:

(1) Tremblay, A., J. Simoneau, and C. Bouchard. Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism.
Metabolism. 43:814-818, 1994.
...
Napisał(a)
Zgłoś naruszenie
Ekspert
Szacuny 11148 Napisanych postów 51564 Wiek 30 lat Na forum 24 lat Przeczytanych tematów 57816
Lektura dodatkowa dla mędrców z AWF (literatura poniżej):

With all of life's demands constantly knocking at your door, it's easy to rationalize skipping those long, drawn out cardio sessions- "There just isn't enough time to workout today." Well, get ready to trash that excuse because now you can get the greatest results with a workout that can easily be incorporated into your busy schedule. No, I didn't team up with Jaime Brenkus to produce the new and improved Seven Minute Abs video; however, I am about to introduce you to the most electrifying cardio workout known to man, High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT). HIIT can be defined as the repeated alternating of higher intensity periods of maximal effort with lower intensity periods of active recovery to satisfy a given workout criterion. An example of this would be to sprint for 20 seconds (maximal effort) and then walk for 40 seconds (active recovery); repeat to satisfy the exercise prescription.

When working at higher intensities, the overall duration of the exercise session can be (and should be) significantly shortened, which is great news for those wanting get the most per unit time from their workouts. But that's not all, the benefits of HIIT over moderate-intensity, longer duration cardio are many:

1. HIIT causes you to expend more energy (calories)! Although high-intensity aerobics will burn a little less fat than its moderate-intensity counterpart during the exercise session, the total number of calories (and fat) burned as a result of high-intensity exercise is substantially greater than that associated with activity of lower intensity. This is due to an increased excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC). In other words, the number of calories burned during the hours following a high-intensity exercise bout is greatly increased due to a prolonged increase in oxygen consumption. You burn more calories by just sitting there! With low to moderate intensity cardio, EPOC is minimal, thus metabolism quickly returns to baseline following the exercise session [6,7].

2. HIIT yields greater fat loss! In one particular study, individuals performed either an endurance training (ET) or HIIT training program for a period of 15-weeks. At the end of the testing period, the HIIT group experienced nine times the fat loss of the endurance training group [2]! This is certainly supported empirically by the many individuals who have experienced accelerated fat loss after adopting HIIT as their form of cardiovascular exercise.

3. HIIT gets you in bad ass shape! High-intensity interval training has proven to increase both one's aerobic and anaerobic capacity; endurance training only increases the former [1,2,3,4]. Moreover, HIIT has been shown to increase one's aerobic capacity even more so than endurance training [4]. One study showed a 14% increase aerobic fitness and a 28% increase in anaerobic capacity in only 14 weeks when following a high-intensity workout regimen [4].

By now, it should be obvious that HIIT is the way to go to make the most of your time, accelerate fat loss, and greatly improve your level of fitness. There is still one problem, however. HIIT is brutally demanding; unless your current fitness level is substantially above average, you will likely fail at completing even a short HIIT exercise session. While this is an obvious problem (if you can't perform the workouts, your chances of reaping the results of such training are zero) it can easily be circumvented. The table below outlines a 12-week, progressive program that I have designed for anyone interested in gradually moving towards HIIT training. At the end of the 12 weeks, you will truly be in what is referred to by my colleague John M. Berardi as "bad ass shape."

Week 1, Workout 1: 20 minutes @ 70% of HRmax
Week 1, Workout 2: 25 minutes @ 70% of HRmax
Week 1, Workout 3: 30 minutes @ 70% of HRmax

Week 2, Workout 1: 20 minutes @ 75% of HRmax
Week 2, Workout 2: 25 minutes @ 75% of HRmax
Week 2, Workout 3: 30 minutes @ 75% of HRmax

Week 3, Workout 1: 20 minutes @ 80% of HRmax
Week 3, Workout 2: 25 minutes @ 80% of HRmax
Week 3, Workout 3: 30 minutes @ 80% of HRmax

Week 4, Workout 1: 20 minutes @ 85% of HRmax
Week 4, Workout 2: 25 minutes @ 85% of HRmax
Week 4, Workout 3: 30 minutes @ 85% of HRmax

Week 5, Workout 1: 5 sprint intervals
Week 5, Workout 2: 5 sprint intervals
Week 5, Workout 3: 6 sprint intervals

Week 6, Workout 1: 6 sprint intervals
Week 6, Workout 2: 7 sprint intervals
Week 6, Workout 3: 7 sprint intervals

Week 7, Workout 1: 8 sprint intervals
Week 7, Workout 2: 8 sprint intervals
Week 7, Workout 3: 9 sprint intervals

Week 8, Workout 1: 9 sprint intervals
Week 8, Workout 2: 10 sprint intervals
Week 8, Workout 3: 10 sprint intervals

Week 9, Workout 1: 11 sprint intervals
Week 9, Workout 2: 11 sprint intervals
Week 9, Workout 3: 12 sprint intervals

Week 10, Workout 1: 12 sprint intervals
Week 10, Workout 2: 13 sprint intervals
Week 10, Workout 3: 13 sprint intervals

Week 11, Workout 1: 14 sprint intervals
Week 11, Workout 2: 14 sprint intervals
Week 11, Workout 3: 15 sprint intervals

Week 12, Workout 1: 15 sprint intervals
Week 12, Workout 2: 15 sprint intervals
Week 12, Workout 3: 15 sprint intervals

NOTE: Your age predicted maximum heart rate (APMHR) can be obtained by simply subtracting your age from the number 220. For example, if you are 30 years old, your APMHR is 190 beats per minute (bpm). Therefore, if following the complete program above, your first workout would be 20 minutes in duration and would be performed at

The workouts of weeks 1-4 are performed at the conventional percentage of maximum heart rate (HRmax). Within each week, the duration of each workout is increased by 5 minutes while the exercise intensity remains constant. At the beginning of each new week, the duration is reverted back to 20 minutes while the intensity is increased by 5%. By gradually increasing the workload through the manipulation of both the duration and intensity variables, you will effectively prepare yourself for the higher intensity sprint work that is to follow.

For the sprinting portion of the program, each interval should be one minute in duration; 20 seconds of maximal effort and 40 seconds of active recovery. Each workout should begin with a light warm-up and stretching and should be concluded with continued walking until your breathing rate has returned to normal. An additional interval is added to every other workout to ensure progressive overload and continual progress. The goal is to perform 15 high intensity intervals in a single workout; there is no need to go any higher than this.

Also, it should be noted that you do not have to begin the program with the first workout listed above. If you feel that your current level of fitness is such that you are able to begin with the workouts given in week 4, or week 7, etc, then by all means, do so. However, do not push yourself too quickly; if you are not used to this type of training, it is recommended that you follow the program as outlined.

Timing and Pre/Post-workout Nutrition

I recommend conducting all cardiovascular activity in the morning to take advantage of the prolonged increase in metabolism. It is OK to have a small meal before your session as doing so improves performance and has a negligible impact on energy substrate utilization both during and after exercise [9,10,11,12]. As far as post workout nutrition is concerned, it is fine to go ahead and supplement with fast digesting proteins and carbohydrates immediately following your HIIT session. While the theory of waiting an hour before consuming a post workout meal/beverage sounded solid, it didn't hold up when research put it to the test. Conversely, research shows that consuming quickly digested nutrients immediately following high intensity cardiovascular exercise actually increases EPOC, reduces muscle protein catabolism, and increases recovery, all while having no adverse effect on lipolysis (fat burning) [8]. For more information, see my article Active Nutrition.

Mixing Things Up

Once you have completed the program, you can avoid boredom and stagnation by making some adjustments to your HIIT sessions. An easy and effective way to do this is to manipulate the work to rest ratio of each session. In the above program, the work to rest ratio was set at 1:2 (20 seconds sprint, 40 seconds walk). Other work to rest ratios that have proven to be successful are 1:1/2, 1:1, and 1:3 [1,3,4,5]. Below are some example programs using each:

Work to Rest Ratio- 1:1/2

Sprint 20 seconds/Walk 10 seconds, repeat 8-10 times

Work to Rest Ratio- 1:1

Sprint 20 seconds/Walk 20 seconds, repeat 10-12 times

Work to Rest Ratio- 1:3

Sprint 20 seconds/Walk 60 seconds, repeat 12-15 times

The only time I would change the mode of exercise (from sprinting to another mode such as cycling, rowing, stair stepping, etc) is if the weather is not conducive to sprinting outdoors. Sprinting is by far the most convenient, most effective form of HIIT.


That's All Folks

Time is of the essence, and so are the results that you obtain from the work you put in. If you want to maximize your results in the shortest amount of time, then HIIT is the mode of choice. By working your way up to this type of intense training, you'll feel great, look great, and free up more than enough time to send me an email screaming about how much progress you've made.




References

1. Rodas G, et al. A short training programme for the rapid improvement of both aerobic and anaerobic metabolism. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2000 Aug;82(5-6):480-6.

2. Tremblay A, et al. Impact on exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism 1994 Jul;43(7):814-8.

3. Tabata I, et al. Metabolic profile of high intensity intermittent exercises. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1997 Mar;29(3):390-5.

4. Tabata I, et al. Effects of moderate-intensity endurance and high-intensity intermittent training on anaerobic capacity and VO2max. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1996 Oct;28(10):1327-30.

5. Gullstrand L. Physiological responses to short-duration high-intensity intermittent rowing. Can J Appl Physiol 1996 Jun;21(3):197-208.

6. Bahr R, et al. Effect of Intensity on Excess Post exercise O2 Consumption. Metabolism 40.8 (1991) : 836-841.

7. Smith J, et al. The Effects of Intensity of Exercise and Excess Post-Exercise Oxygen Consumption and Energy Expenditure in Moderately Trained Men and Women. European Journal of Applied Physiology 67 (1993) : 420-425.

8. Lee YS, et al. The effects of various intensities and durations of exercise with and without glucose in milk ingestion on postexercise oxygen consumption.
J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 1999 Dec;39(4):341-7.

9. Diboll DC, et al. Cardiovascular and metabolic responses during 30 minutes of treadmill exercise shortly after consuming a small, high-carbohydrate meal. Int J Sports Med. 1999 Aug;20(6):384-9.

10. Bahr R, et al. Effect of feeding and fasting on excess postexercise oxygen consumption. Appl Physiol. 1991 Dec;71(6):2088-93.

11. Bergman BC, et al. Respiratory gas-exchange ratios during graded exercise in fed and fasted trained and untrained men. J Appl Physiol. 1999 Feb;86(2):479-87.

12. Schabort EJ, et al. The effect of a preexercise meal on time to fatigue during prolonged cycling exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Mar;31(3):464-71.
...
Napisał(a)
Zgłoś naruszenie
yupie_girl ZASŁUŻONA
Początkujący
Szacuny 25 Napisanych postów 4510 Na forum 20 lat Przeczytanych tematów 30521
wniosek: nie zadzieraj z Tyka, bo ci da w cholere angtxtow do poczytania! Brakuje mi tu jeszzce 20stu linkow



Pozdr.

:)

...
Napisał(a)
Zgłoś naruszenie
Ekspert
Szacuny 11148 Napisanych postów 51564 Wiek 30 lat Na forum 24 lat Przeczytanych tematów 57816
mogę dać i ze 120 następnych jesli ktoś zadeklaruje że to na pewno przeczyta
...
Napisał(a)
Zgłoś naruszenie
qazar ZASŁUŻONY
Ekspert
Szacuny 734 Napisanych postów 31016 Na forum 20 lat Przeczytanych tematów 94344
...
Napisał(a)
Zgłoś naruszenie
Początkujący
Szacuny 2 Napisanych postów 6 Na forum 18 lat Przeczytanych tematów 166
siemka. ja jestem tu poczatkujacym i szukam czegos bo mam ogromna otylosc przy wzroscie 180cm waze 100kg teraz to moze i ze 103kg. i chce zgubic conajmniej ze 20 kg. i tego co zrozumialem po przeczytaniu tego to aby schudnac to wystarczy jakas dieta obojetnie jaka + do tego trening na sile gdyz tam sa najwiekrze ciezary i najmniejsze przerwy i do tego w dni beztreningowe 10-12 minut trenin g hiit??

tyka a moze bys chcial zarobic??
bo ja jestem poczatkujacy i nie znam sie na tym i ja bym ci zaplacil za ulozenie mi diety i rozpiske treningu??
co ty na to??

luki

...
Napisał(a)
Zgłoś naruszenie
Ekspert
Szacuny 11148 Napisanych postów 51564 Wiek 30 lat Na forum 24 lat Przeczytanych tematów 57816
ja na to ->

po pierwsze nie stać cię na zatrudnienie mnie raczej, po drugie nie doradzam zawodowo, po trzecie na SFD wszystkie rady masz za darmo, poczytaj posty podwieszone
...
Napisał(a)
Zgłoś naruszenie
Ekspert
Szacuny 11148 Napisanych postów 51564 Wiek 30 lat Na forum 24 lat Przeczytanych tematów 57816
Qazar, masz na początek : http://www.google.pl/search?num=30&hl=pl&q=HIIT more effective than aerobic&btnG=Szukaj&lr=
Jak Ci będzie mało, daj znać, wrzucę więcej
Nowy temat Wyślij odpowiedź
Poprzedni temat

Tuńczyk na noc...

Następny temat

sniadanie bez wegli

WHEY premium