CARBO NOX kiedy na rynku ?

ok. Ale my tu mówimy o treningu typowo pod kulturystyke i uzupełnianiu węgli po nim. A po co nam zwiększanie wytrzymałości - przecież nie jesteśmy sprinterami, czy maratończykami - tak wnioskuje z tego ostatniego badania Dr. Jan Karlsson'a, że badał wpływ węgli na ogólno rozumianych sportowców a nie kulturystów.
Jak znajziesz czas zawitaj na tamten portal / forum może zaczniesz jakąś dyskusję, że się nie zgadzasz samymi węglami po treningu itp. może ztego wyjść całkiem ciekawy topic.
Więcej ci wytłumaczy p. Matella.

Zmieniony przez - rafi11 w dniu 2010-02-05 19:49:02

wyedytowales wiec sie odniose.

Rozmawiamy generalnie co warto jesc/brac po treningu silowym , nie tylko w kontekscie glikogenu. Pisales ze bialko nie, wegle tak + antykataboliki - wiec się do tego odnioslem powyzej podrzucając badania sprawdzające roznego rodzaju zabiegi potreningowe i ich efektywnosc na regeneracje powysilkową. Glikogen nie jest uzpelniany na pstryk - i już, jest to proces rozlozony w czasie i wbrew pozorom nie musi byc kwestią najważniejszą po treningu silowym.

jesli interesują Cie kwestie zwiazane stricte ze zużyciem glikogenu w traklcie roznych rodzajow aktywnosci polecam lekturę:

Glycogen and Resistance Training
Todd Astorino, M.S. and Len Kravitz, Ph.D.

Studies Reviewed:
Haff, G. G., et al. 1999. The effect of carbohydrate supplementation on
multiple sessions and bouts of resistance exercise. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 13, (2), 111-7.

Leveritt, M. & Abernethy, P. J. 1999. Effects of carbohydrate restriction
on strength performance. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 13, (1), 52-7.

The Role of Glycogen in Aerobic and Resistance Exercise
The role of glycogen (stored carbohydrate in muscle) in aerobic exercise has been clearly shown to be associated with increased work output and duration (Haff et al., 1999). Carbohydrate is the body’s preferred substrate during endurance exercise due to its more efficient energy yield per liter of oxygen consumed. Previous resistance training research suggests that weight training is associated with a consequential depletion of muscle glycogen stores. For instance, Robergs et al. (1991) demonstrated that subjects performing 6 sets of leg extensions at 35% and 70% of 1RM resulted in a decrease in muscle glycogen by 38% and 39%, respectively. This article will review two recent articles that further elucidate the role of glycogen in resistance exercise. It is hoped that the personal trainer will gain a better understanding as to the appropriateness of carbohydrate replenishment recommendations for clients engaged in resistance exercise programs.

Energy for Resistance Exercise
Due to the intense and short-term nature of individual bouts of resistance training, it would seem likely that this activity would be highly dependent upon muscle glycogen for ATP provision. High-intensity exercise of short duration (&Mac178; 30 seconds) is characterized by a rapid breakdown of phosphocreatine for the production and use of ATP, as well as stimulation of glycogenolysis (breakdown of glycogen) and glycolysis (breakdown of glucose), with a lesser contribution of oxidative metabolism.

In a study by Tesch et al. (1986), nine bodybuilders completed five sets each of front squats, back squats, leg presses, and leg extensions to fatigue, comprising 30 minutes of exercise. Biopsies of muscle samples were obtained from the vastus lateralis before and immediately after exercise. Muscle glycogen concentration was 26% lower post-exercise, a rather modest decline considering the demanding exercise protocol completed. This led the authors to conclude that energy sources in addition to muscle glycogen support heavy resistance training. Data from Essen-Gustavsson and Tesch (1990) with nine bodybuilders performing the same exercise regimen (as above) revealed a 28% decrement in muscle glycogen content as well as a 30% decrease in muscle triglyceride content. This suggests that intramuscular lipolysis (breakdown of triglycerides) may also play a role in energy production during repeated high-intensity exercise. Overall, research suggests that intramuscular glycogen is an important fuel supporting weight training exercise, but not the only substrate.

Effects of Carbohydrate Restriction and Aerobic Exercise on Strength Performance
Recent research has demonstrated that depleted muscle glycogen stores in conjunction with aerobic exercise compromises strength performance (Levitt & Abernethy, 1999). Subjects (5 young men and one woman) performed resistance exercise under a control (CON) condition (no strenuous exercise for at least 48 hours prior to testing) and after a carbohydrate restricted program (EXP). The EXP condition included 60 min of submaximal cycling and four 1 minute bouts of maximal exercise, followed by 48 hours of reduced carbohydrate intake. The resistance exercise consisted of three sets of squats (80% 1RM) and 5 sets of isokinetic knee extensions, all at different contractile speeds. In comparing the CON to the EXP testing condition, the most observable difference was noted in squat performance, with no significant differences in the knee extension trials. There was a decrease in the average total number of repetitions in Set 1 (CON=18 reps vs EXP=12 reps) and Set 2 (CON=13.5 reps vs EXP=10.33 reps). However, there was no difference between the CON and the EXP groups at any of the five contractile speeds of isokinetic knee extensions.

In explaining the differing outcomes of the squat sets versus the knee extensions sets (to an aerobic and carbohydrate restricted program), the authors summarized previous research that has depicted substrate utilization differences in the type of exercise. Isometric exercise has been shown to be impaired by reducing glycogen content while no change has been seen in isokinetic exercise. The authors hypothesized the differences in the present study were also due to the type of exercise. The isokinetic exercise bouts consisted of relatively short duration (1.5 to 7.5 seconds) versus the sets of squats (approximately 30 seconds per set). It was felt the energy production of the isokinetic exercise was predominantly due to the breakdown of creatine phosphate while the utilization of glycogen was much more apparent in the longer lasting squat exercise regime.

The Effect of Carbohydrate Supplementation on Multiple Sessions and Bouts of Resistance Exercise
For athletes completing multiple high-intensity strength training sessions per day, maintenance of muscle glycogen stores is critical. In a study by Haff et al. (1999), six resistance-trained men ingested a 250 gram carbohydrate supplement or placebo during a morning training session, rested for 4 hours, and then performed a second session consisting of multiple sets of light-intensity squats (55% 1RM) to exhaustion. During the second training session, the number of sets and repetitions performed were markedly higher with the carbohydrate consumption, and subjects were able to exercise for 30 minutes longer. The authors concluded that athletes engaging in multiple exercise sessions per day (ranging from mild to high intensity) will receive a performance advantage with carbohydrate ingestion via maintenance of intramuscular glycogen stores, due to greater glycogen resynthesis during recovery. In addition, the carbohydrate supplementation not only increased workout performance, it markedly increased workout duration.

Practical Application
For the recreational athlete participating in weight training, consideration of muscle glycogen stores is most satisfactory maintained with a well-balanced and calorically-sufficient diet. It is necessary for personal trainers to consider the exercise habits and goals of their weight training clients before prescribing carbohydrate supplementation to benefit exercise performance. So as not to let clients get carried away, it is meaningful to remind them that an excess of carbohydrate intake, exceeding bodily energy expenditure needs, will result in weight gain. However, it is apparent from these two studies reviewed that individuals doing concurrent aerobic exercise with high-intensity resistance training and/or completing multiple training sessions per day should be concerned with maintenance of glycogen stores, since glycogen depletion may reduce work output and duration.

References
Essen-Gustavsson, B. & Tesch, P. A. 1990. Glycogen and triglyceride
utilization in relation to muscle metabolic characteristics in men performing heavy-resistance exercise. European Journal of Applied Physiology, 61, 5-10.

Haff, G. G., et al. 1999. The effect of carbohydrate supplementation on
multiple sessions and bouts of resistance exercise. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 13, (2), 111-7.

Leveritt, M. & Abernethy, P. J. 1999. Effects of carbohydrate restriction
on strength performance. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 13, (1), 52-7.

Robergs, R. A., Pearson, D. R., Costil, D. L., Fink, D. D., Pascoe, M. A., Benedict, C. P., Lambert, C. P., and Zachweija, J. J. (1991). Muscle glycogenolysis during differing intensities of weight-resistance exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology, 70, 1700-1706.

Tesch, P. A., Colliander, E. B., & Kaiser, P. 1986. Muscle metabolism
during intense, heavy- resistance exercise. European Journal of Applied Physiology, 55, 362-6.

kolejne badający paliwo miesniowe w trakcie treningu silowego:

B. Essén-Gustavsson1 and P. A. Tesch2 Contact Information
(1) Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Department of Medicine and Surgery, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, Box 7018, S-75007 Uppsala, Sweden
(2) Department of Environmental Medicine, Karolinska Institutet, Box 60400, S-10401 Stockholm, Sweden

Accepted: 5 December 1989
Summary Nine bodybuilders performed heavy-resistance exercise activating the quadriceps femoris muscle. Intermittent 30-s exhaustive exercise bouts comprising 6&#8211;12 repetitions were interspersed with 60-s periods for 30 min. Venous blood samples were taken repeatedly during and after exercise for analyses of plasma free fatty acid (FFA) and glycerol concentration. Muscle biopsies were obtained from the vastus lateralis muscle before and after exercise and assayed for glycogen, glycerol-3-phosphate, lactate and triglyceride (TG) content. The activities of citrate synthase (CS), lactate dehydrogenase, hexokinase (HK), myokinase, creatine kinase and 3-hydroxyacyl-CoA dehydrogenase (HAD), were analysed. Histochemical staining procedures were used to assess fibre type composition, fibre area and capillary density. TG content before and after exercise averaged (SD) 23.9 (13.3) and 16.7 (6.4) mmol kg&#8211;1 dry wt. The basal triglyceride content varied sixfold among individuals and the higher the levels the greater was the change during exercise. The glycogen content decreased (P<0.001) from 690 (82) to 495 (95) mmol kg&#8211;1 dry wt. and lactate and glycerol-3-phosphate increased (P<0.001) to 79.5 (5.5) and 14.5 (7.3) mmol kg&#8211;1 dry wt., respectively, after exercise. The HK and HAD/CS content respectively correlated with glycogen or TG content at rest and with changes in these metabolites during exercise. FFA and glycerol concentrations increased slightly (P<0.001) during exercise. Lipolysis may, therefore, provide energy during heavy-resistance exercise of relatively short duration. Also, storage and utilization of intramuscular substrates appear to be influenced by the metabolic profile of muscle.

Key words Enzyme activities - Fast- and slow-twitch muscle fibres - Free fatty acids - Glycerol - Hypertrophy


I jeszcze jedno ciekawe, które pkazuje że dodatke wegli do napoju bialkowago po treningu nie musi byc wcale koiniecznym rozwiązaniem:

Co-ingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment post-exercise muscle protein synthesis
Rene Koopman, Milou Beelen, Trent Stellingwerff, Bart Pennings, Wim H.M. Saris, Arie K Kies3, Harm Kuipers, and Luc J. C. van Loon

The present study was designed to assess the impact of co-ingestion of various amounts of carbohydrate combined to an ample amount of protein intake on post-exercise muscle protein synthesis rates. Ten healthy, fit men (20&#177;0.3 y) were randomly assigned to 3 cross-over experiments. After 60 min of resistance exercise, subjects consumed 0.3 g&#183;kg-1&#183;h-1 protein hydrolysate with 0, 0.15, or 0.6 g&#183;kg-1&#183;h-1 carbohydrate during a 6 h recovery period (PRO, PRO+LCHO, and PRO+HCHO, respectively). Primed, continuous infusions with L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine, L-[ring-2H2]tyrosine, and [6,6-2H2]glucose were applied, and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole-body protein turnover and glucose kinetics as well as protein fractional synthesis rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle over 6 h of post-exercise recovery. Plasma insulin responses were significantly greater in PRO+HCHO compared to PRO+LCHO and PRO (18.4&#177;2.9 vs. 3.7&#177;0.5 and 1.5&#177;0.2 U&#183;6h&#183;L-1, respectively: P<0.001). Plasma glucose rate of appearance (Ra) and disappearance (Rd) increased over time in PRO+HCHO and PRO+LCHO but not in PRO. Plasma glucose Ra and Rd were substantially greater in PRO+HCHO vs both PRO and PRO+LCHO (P<0.01). Whole-body protein breakdown, synthesis and oxidation rates, as well as whole-body protein balance did not differ between experiments. Mixed muscle FSR did not differ between treatments and averaged 0.10&#177;0.01, 0.10&#177;0.01 and 0.11&#177;0.01 %&#183;h-1 in the PRO, PRO+LCHO and PRO+HCHO experiments, respectively. In conclusion, co-ingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate post-exercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested.

Nie wysyłaj mnie na inne fora - bo ani sam nie potrzebuję uswiadamiania, ani też nie widze powodu by kogolowiek nawracac. Wychodze po prostu z zalozenia na uzytek swoj i ewentualnie tego forum - że koniecznosc stosowania duzych dawek wegli po treningu - zwlaszcza jako samodzielnego posilku - jest dyskusyjna. Daleki jestem od kategorycznych sądów, po prostu skłaniam się ku jednym tezom, a w stosunku do innych jestem sceptyczny. Mam isc na inne forum i pokazać jaki to ja jestem sceptyczny? Nie widze sensu.



Zmieniony przez - faftaq w dniu 2010-02-05 20:07:13

faftaq to jak mozesz to odnies sie do bialka samego po treningu, tylko w PL

czy to nie ten temat?

Zmieniony przez - Molu86 w dniu 2010-02-05 20:07:49

Molu - zalezy jaki cel, jakie zalozenia diety?

osobiscie z wegli z posilku potreningowego - rezygnowalbym na samym koncu. Chyba ze chodzi Ci o opcje: po silce bialko, potem posilek uwzgledniający wegle.



Zmieniony przez - faftaq w dniu 2010-02-05 20:09:08

Dobra i tak zostaję przy swoim i sprawdzony sposobie w praktyce (przez kadrowiczów)
W tych badaniach i wcześniejszych napisane jest, że białko jedzone jest ok. 45-1h po treningu.
Przecież wcześniej powiedziałem, że bezpośrednio po treningu węgle, a po nich w niewielkim odstepie czasu pełnowartościowy posiłek (w nim są węgle białko i tłusze).
Więc i tak po ok 30-1h po treningu dostarczamy białko.
Co do artów powyżej - jasno jest wskazane/zalecane spożycie węgli po treningu.
Dobra koniec spierania.
Zamykamy ten wątek już. Widzę, że każdy zostanie przy swoim. Nie walę focha .
Pozdro dla Wszystkich.

Chyba trochę nie doczytales. Akurat badania wczesniej wklejone sugerują, że lepiej bialko i wegle razem niz same wegle - a potem bialko. Inne wkleilem by wykazac iż straty glikogenu nie musza byc drastyczne, a i wydaję się iż nie mniej znaczącym zrodłem energii dla miesni są triacyglicerole...

I jak już mowiłem, rodzielanie bialek od wegli w suplementacji potreningowej - to wlasnie wymysł pradawny od ktorego się odchodzi.

Podobnie jak nie ma koniecznosci spozywania czegokolwiek zaraz po odlozeniu sztangi.

Wyjsciowo okres ok 30 - 60min po trenngu uznaje się za odpowiedni do spozycia posilku potreningowego, stąd w badaniach taka opacja. Ale z tego co pamietam, byly tez badania w ktorych weglowodany i/lub bialmo podwanoa w ciagu 15 min od zakonczenia sesji, mogę poszukac potem jak jestes zainteresowany.

Dr. Charles B. Hensey - "Wielu ludzi stara się powstrzymać stan katabolizmu przyjmując suplementy hamujące wydzielanie kortyzolu, ale nie jest to najlepszy sposób w kontekście przyrostu mięśni. Jeśli kulturysta hamuje katabolizm, nie osiąga takich przyrostów o jakie mu chodzi. Musi on usunąć zanieczyszczenia z mięśni (poprzez katabolizm) dla skuteczniejszego ich przyrostu (poprzez anabolizm). Katabolizm, do którego dochodzi w wyniku treningu w mięśniach jest zupełnie innego rodzaju niż katabolizm wywołany głodzeniem. Ten pierwszy jest istotną częścią całego procesu anabolicznego. lepiej pchnąć ten proces do przodu niż hamować coś, co zachodzi naturalnie."

generalnie - na potrzebe pdtrzyamania spojnosci wlasnej tezy - szukasz dziury w całym

Oczywiscie jedz jak uwazasz - poszkuaj tez moze jakiegos empirycznego, weryfikowalnego obrazka uzasadniającego Twoje podejscie. Pamietaj - ze to iż z kadry ktos robi tak a nie inaczej - nie znaczy, ze jest to najlepsze. Do niedawna jeszcze w niektorych kregach tłuszcz pokarmowy = tłuszcz ustrojowy, i kofeiny z kreatyną łaczyć nie było wolno...

Zmieniony przez - faftaq w dniu 2010-02-05 20:26:44

rowniez warto poczytac: http://www.staleytraining.com/articles/lonnie-lowery/justifying-post-workout-carbs.htm

Zmieniony przez - faftaq w dniu 2010-02-05 20:33:47

Zmieniony przez - faftaq w dniu 2010-02-05 20:37:49

tak chodzi mi o bialko po treningu a po 45-60 min posilek bialko + wegle (+ moze tluszcz)

imo moze byc. ale nie koniecznie jest to najlepsza opcja. (trudno mi się kategorycznie wypowiedziec). W kazdym badz razie jesli nie jestes skrajnym ekto - krzywdy sobie nie zrobisz.

rafi w chwili wolnej mozesz poczytać jesli chcesz: https://www.sfd.pl/Węglowodany..._a_raczej_Carbo_;_-t316423.html

Tak juz na marginesie wspomnę też iż wywoływanie hiperinsulinemii duzymi dawkami weglowodanow po treningu silowym - moze byc mniej korzystne niż delikatna jej stymulacja mniejsza dawka węgli.

Zmieniony przez - faftaq w dniu 2010-02-05 20:31:02