eca <> creatine

Super dział.

Biniu.. mam prośbę.. przedstaw mi swoje zdanie na temat wpływu ECA na efektywność cyklu kreatynowego.. dawka ECA tylko przed treningiem..

cele.. zadania..
wiara w przeznaczenie..

z wiadomosci ktore pamietam - bez glukozy kreatyna tez dotrze do miesni z tym tylko ze pozniej - zreszta widzimy tuatj sens brania kreatyny przed treningiem jako ze podczas cwiczen dotrze ona do cwiczacych miesni
zaraz poszukam dla Ciebie zrodel

Jak jesz - tak zyjesz
Wiedza to podstawa
Doradca w dziale Alternatywna Droga

1. dzieki
2. nie rozmawiamy w tym dziale o substancjach zabronionych w Polsce
3. abys jednak czul sie ostrzezony nie jest to najlepsza kombinacja

Ischaemic stroke in a sportsman who consumed MaHuang extract and creatine monohydrate for body building
We report the first case of extensive cerebral infarct in a young sportsman consuming high doses of MaHuang extract and creatine monohydrate. This should alert the sport community to possible serious adverse effects of energy supplements. A 33 year old man had a severe aphasia on awakening in the morning of 23 January 1999. He did not complain of headache or of other symptoms. He was referred to our department on 26 January 1999. He had a Wernicke aphasia with a slight right sided face and arm weakness and a right Babinski sign. His blood pressure was 140/60 and his pulse 54 per minute. Brain CT showed signs of extensive left middle cerebral artery infarct. Cervical ultrasound duplex scanning and cerebral angiography were normal. Cerebral CSF examination was normal. There was no coagulopathy. D-dimeres were within the normal range (360 ng/ml, normal <500 ng/ml). Creatinine was in the normal range (102 ?mol/litre). Transoesophageal echocardiography and ECG were also normal except for a patent foramen ovale.
The patient had no vascular risk factors, in particular no tobacco use, and he was perfectly fit until his stroke. He was a sportsman with 2 hours daily intensive training for body building. He was working as a baggage handler in an international airline company. During a recent journey to Miami, Florida, he bought tablets of "energy pills" in a shopping store to enhance his athletic performances. The first drug contained MaHuang extract (corresponding to 20 mg ephedra alkaloids), 200 mg caffeine, 100 mg L-carnitine, and 200 ?g chromium per two capsules. The second drug contained 6000 mg creatine monohydrate, 1000 mg taurine, 100 mg inosine, and 5 mg coenzyme Q10 per scoop. He consumed 40-60 mg ephedra alkaloids, 400-600 mg caffeine, and 6000 mg creatine monohydrate daily for about 6 weeks before his stroke.
Although a paradoxical embolism through a patent foramen ovale in this patient cannot be ruled out as he recently returned from a transatlantic air flight, there was no deep venous thrombosis and D-dimeres were normal. However, ephedrine has an indirect sympathomimetic action and is responsible for arteriolar vasoconstriction in addition to other catecholaminergic effects. Both ischaemic and haemorrhagic stroke associated with ephedrine use have been reported.1-3 Acute myocardial infarction and acute psychosis have also been reported after taking ephedrine and other sympathomimetic drugs.3 Ephedrine and its metabolites are natural products that are used in non-prescription medicines for multiple uses. MaHuang extract, which contains ephedrine, is used among young sportsmen and sportswomen as an energy supplement in non-prescription tablets in some countries.
Although no cardiovascular side effects have been reported with the use of creatine monohydrate, this compound, used in association with other drugs as energy supplement may have deleterious side effects. This may be particularly true when used at high doses in combination with sympathomimetic drugs as in our patient. Renal dysfunction has also been reported after oral creatine supplements.4 Our patient had a slight increase in creatinine concentration although it remained in the normal range. Whether the use of high doses of caffeine can enhance the cardiovascular effect of ephedrine remains a possibility as stroke after taking a combination of caffeine and amphetamine has been reported.5
Drug addiction in sportsmen and sportswomen is becoming a major concern in our societies, involving both professionals and amateurs. As energy supplements, thought to enhance performance, are easily available in some countries without the need of medical prescription, everybody should be aware that these so called "benign" drugs may have major adverse effects.
This first case report of an extensive cerebral infarct in a young sportsman consuming high doses of MaHuang extract and creatine monohydrate should alert the sport community to this possible adverse effects of energy supplements, particularly when used in multiple combination.
K VAHEDI, V DOMIGO, P AMARENCO, M-G BOUSSER
Service de Neurologie, Hôpital Lariboisi?re, Paris, France
Correspondence to: Dr K Vahedi, Service de Neurologie, Hôpital Lariboisi?re, 2 Rue A Paré, 75010 Paris, France email [email protected]
References
1. Stoessl AJ, Young GB, Feasby TE. Intracerebral hemorrhage and angiographic beading following ingestion of catecholaminergics. Stroke 1985;16:734-736[Abstract].
2. Yin PA. Ephedrine-induced intracerebral hemorrhage and central nervous system vasculitis. Stroke 1990;21:1641[Medline].
3. Bruno A, Nolte KB, Chapin J. Stroke associated with ephedrine use. Neurology 1993;43:1313-1316[Abstract].
4. Greenhaff P. Renal dysfunction accompanying oral creatine supplements. Lancet 1998;352:213-214[Medline].
5. Lambrecht GL, Malbrain ML, Chew SL, et al. Intranasal caffeine and amphetamine causing stroke. Acta Neurol Belg 1993;93:146-149[Medline].

i nie pytaj o substancje zabronione w Polsce - prosze

Fakty, nie mity - stan wiedzy na rok 2003
'Alternatywna Droga'

Nie zrozumieliśmy się.. nie o takie aspekty tej kwestii mi chodziło ale.. ok..

Może zatem tak:
Mam astmę.. jestem na cyklu kreatynowym.. a lekarz polecił mi brać pewien lek, w którego skład wchodzi m.in syntetyczna efedryna.. do tego jestem przyzwyczajony pić codziennie bardzo bardzo mocną kawę i czasami jak mnie boli głowa (a boli mnie codziennie bo mam migrenę) to biorę aspirynę.. i na tle tych faktów powiedz mi lub przedstaw teorie w jakim stopniu kuracja taka wpływa na absorpcje kreatyny i jej skuteczność.. jeżeli możesz oczywiście

Pozdrawiam.

cele.. zadania..
wiara w przeznaczenie..

Why are creatine and caffeine a bad combination?
 
Caffeine is a commonly used in conjunction with fitness programs. Many weight loss supplements come loaded with caffeine. Additionally, athletes often use caffeine during training for its stimulatory effects. Ironically, chronic caffeine use will also lessen the boost in strength you receive from creatine. One recent study has shown that extended caffeine use COMPLETEY ABOLISHES the physical benefits typically afforded by creatine use (ref. 1). By contrast, a single dose of caffeine immediately before exercise either has no effect (ref. 2), or even enhances the improvement in strength observed with creatine (ref. 3). Therefore, at least as far as creatine is concerned, chronic caffeine consumption appears to be much more counterproductive than an occasional cup of coffee.
This result initially came as a complete surprise to the scientists conducting the research. They had originally expected caffeine to ENHANCE creatine's benefits since caffeine should create a more permissive environment for creatine transport into muscle. In fact, creatine is transported into skeletal muscle equally well with, or without, caffeine. The most likely hypothesis, therefore, is that caffeine is exerting its inhibitory effect directly on the contractile machinery of muscle.
Certain wrong explanations, however, can be discounted from the start. First, the fact that caffeine is a diuretic has nothing to do with its counterproductive effect. Diuretics increase the amount of fluid that is excreted from the body in the urine. By apparent contrast, ingesting creatine monohydrate powder causes our muscles to retain more fluids thereby reducing urine production. These opposing effects of caffeine and creatine have inspired rumors that caffeine counteracts the benefits of creatine by preventing muscles from retaining fluids.
Making this mental link is erroneous and assumes that water retention by skeletal muscle, otherwise known as muscle volumizing, is the source of creatine's physical benefit. Although increasing the girth of our muscles, muscle volumizing has no proven effect on strength. In other words, size alone isn't the basis for strength, rather augmented energy stores (ATP and PCr) and increased contractile proteins (increased protein synthesis) are the true source of strength. Our muscles get bigger when we train because the amount of proteins they contain increases. Blood flow to our muscle also increases causing them to swell. With reference to training, therefore, size and strength do go hand in hand. On the other hand, inflating our muscles with water without the benefit of these other biochemical processes accomplishes very little, athletically speaking.
 
A more feasible explanation is that caffeine interferes with the contractile properties of muscle.
Would it surprise you that relaxation and power are one in the same? In truth, strength is the outcome of the coordinated interplay between muscle contraction and relaxation. For example, when performing a biceps curl the triceps must relax at the same time as the biceps contract for the bar to rise. If both muscle groups remain contracted (or relaxed) the bar goes absolutely nowhere! In other words, without the coordinated relaxation of antagonistic muscle groups there is no power. On a mechanistic level it is the presence of calcium that triggers contraction. Calcium must therefore be stingily hidden away into special storage compartments when muscle relaxation is required and only released from these intramuscular storage sites when contraction is desired.
It is thus relevant that one of PCr's primary roles in muscle is to provide the energy to return calcium into these reservoirs. In this manner creatine (PCr) assists in muscle relaxation and enhances our athletic performance. Interestingly, caffeine has the opposite effect of allowing calcium to escape from these intracellular calcium storage sites. Caffeine would thus hamper muscle relaxation. In agreement with these findings a recent study has shown that caffeine interferes with creatine's ability to facilitate muscle relaxation, especially during moments of fatigue (ref. 2). Caffeine might thusly confound the ability of PCr to store away calcium and in doing so nullify part of creatine's benefit.
 
Take Home
If you're serious about getting the most from creatine, avoid chronic use of caffeine. Scientific studies show that the equivalent of three cups of coffee per day for as little as three days is sufficient to completely negate the benefits typically afforded by creatine (ref. 1). On the other hand, an occasional cup of coffee doesn't seem to render much harm (refs. 2, 3).
About the author of this article.
Creatine 101: A crash course for beginners. Here we teach the right foods to combine with creatine to maximally stimulate muscle growth.
Click here for our special Creatine Recipe.
 
 
Scientific References:
1. Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P. (1996) Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading. Journal of Applied Physiolgy Volume 80(2), pages 452-457
2. Hespel P, Op't Eijnde B, Van Leemputte M. (2002) Opposite actions of caffeine and creatine on muscle relaxation time in humans. Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 92, pages 513-518
3. Doherty M, Smith PM, Davison RC, Hughes MG. (2002) Caffeine is ergogenic after supplementation of oral creatine monohydrate. Med Sci Sports Exerc Volume 34, pages 1785-1792

http://www.creatinemonohydrate.net/creatine_newsletter_19.html#Featured

Fakty, nie mity - stan wiedzy na rok 2003
'Alternatywna Droga'

Obviously, creatine finds its way into skeletal muscle after being ingested. But, how is this actually accomplished?
From the blood stream creatine is transported into skeletal muscle via the action of transporter molecules distributed along the muscle surface. These are the molecular doors that allow creatine into muscle cells. Our physiological status determines how well these molecular doors work at letting in creatine. For example, sodium outside the muscle cell, the extramuscular sodium, regulates the activity of these transporter molecules. In this respect, an elevation of extramuscular sodium promotes creatine entry via these transporters.
Based on earlier studies showing that caffeine increases extramuscular sodium, it was proposed that caffeine should likewise augment creatine transport into muscle cells and hence accentuate its beneficial effects. Oddly, however, caffeine has the opposite effect than initially expected. Caffeine actually interferes with the enhancement of physical performance afforded by creatine. A possible explanation for this paradoxical finding is the topic of this month's newsletter.

Fakty, nie mity - stan wiedzy na rok 2003
'Alternatywna Droga'

laczenia kreatyny z efedryna nie polecam ze wzgledow zdrowotnych

Fakty, nie mity - stan wiedzy na rok 2003
'Alternatywna Droga'

jezeli potrzebujesz ECA przed treningiem bo nie masz energii to popracuj nad dieta lub zracjonalizuj treningi i pozostan przy kreatynie;
jezeli jestes na diecie redukcyjnej i wspomagasz ECA efekt odchudzania to odpusc sobie kreatyne z powodow ktore opisal Biniu;



"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler."

--Albert Einstein

A jakie jest "Wasze" zdanie na temat samej kofeiny przed treningiem na cyklu kreatynowym?

Biniu to co wkleiłeś to fakty czy mity? Masz swoje zdanie? Może jakieś praktyczne doświadczenia?

cele.. zadania..
wiara w przeznaczenie..

Mialem kiedys w reku badania dot. kofeiny i jej powiazania z kreatyna w sprawie wzrostu sily miesni i z tego co pamietam kofeina chyba nawet po 20h niwelowala jakikolwiek wplyw kreatyny Z walsnych doswiadczen moge jedynie powiedziec ze w czasie cyklu kreatynowego nigdy staralem sie nie stosowac kofeiny ze wzgledu na powszechnie znane info na temat polaczenia obydwu
gdy tylko odszukam wszystkie zrodla - postaram sie zamiescic tutaj te badania
pozdrawiam

Jak jesz - tak zyjesz
Wiedza to podstawa
Doradca w dziale Alternatywna Droga

Biniu to co wkleiłeś to fakty czy mity?

A JAK SADZISZ ??
W WIEKSZOSCI MASZ PRZYTOCZONE BADANIA NAUKOWE WIEC ...

Masz swoje zdanie?

COZ ZNACZY WLASNE ??
ZDANIE MOZE ONO BAZOWAC
1. NA WLASNYCH DOSWIADCZENIACH (TYCH NNIE MAM JELSI CHODZI O TE KONKRETNE PREPARATY)
2. OPINII INNYCH (RACZEJ WATPLIWE ZRODLO ZAUFANIA, WYJATEK STANOWIA WYBITNE JEDNOSTKI WE WLASNEJ DZIEDZINIE WIEDZY Z REGULY OTWRACI NA ROZNEGO RODZAJU MOZLIWOSCI NAUKOWCY)
3. UCZCIWYCH BADANIACH NAUKOWYCH A TE TOBIE PODALEM

Może jakieś praktyczne doświadczenia?

PATRZ POWYZEJ

Fakty, nie mity - stan wiedzy na rok 2003
'Alternatywna Droga'

OK w sumie mnie przekonałeś Biniu ale.. co powiesz np. o Zulaku, który twierdzi, że kofeina nie ma negatywnego wpływu na cykl kreatynowy?

cele.. zadania..
wiara w przeznaczenie..