Odnośnie PRO LONGATUM (do P. Szukały/Ambroziaka)

ellis, pół godziny czytam w koło to jedno jedyne zdanie i za nic nie łapie.

taki maly fakt...
po treningu silowym insulina jest uwalniana w marginalnym stopniu...bynajmniej nie takim ktory stwarza anaboliczne srodowisko ;)
w kazdym razie Renesans...obecny stan wiedzy stwarza pole do stwierdzenia ze zdecydowanie lepsze dla odnowy jest spozycie bialka wolnowchlanialnego po treingu niz ww...albo ww+b

Zmieniony przez - misOO w dniu 2006-10-14 20:04:36

Hyperinsulinemia, hyperaminoacidemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink.
Manninen AH.

Advanced Research Press, Inc., United States.

Dietary supplements and other ergogenic aids are popular among athletes. Recent studies have demonstrated that nutritional mixtures containing protein hydrolysates, added leucine, and high-glycemic carbohydrates strongly augments insulin secretion compared with the high-glycemic carbohydrates only trial. When post-exercise hyperinsulinemia is supported by protein hydrolysate and leucine ingestion-induced hyperaminoacidemia, net protein deposition in muscle should occur. Thus, post-exercise recovery drinks containing these nutrients may lead to increased skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength in conjuction with appropriate resistance training. However, the long-term effects on body composition and exercise performance remains to be determined.

To badanie już chyba poprzez sam tytuł dobitnie potwierdza to co powiedziałem wyżej

Tak sobie myślę... Jeśli stawiamy na wyrzut insuliny to chyba carbo lub gainer nie bardzo się do tego nadaje, bo zawiera maltodekstrynę, a nie glukozę, która powinna sprzyjać bardziej owemu wyrzutowi. Z drugiej strony moim zdaniem przyjmowanie ww podczas/po treningu jest dobre o tyle, iż szanse, że odłożą się w formie tkanki tłuszczowej są mniejsze niż ich spożycie np. wieczorem. A jednak niektórzy stawiając sobie za cel 6g/kg ww nie mają łatwo dostarczyć tegoż w równych odstępach czasowych (szczególnie przy pracy/nauce).

ellis...no zgadza sie...ale co z tego?

dziwnym by bylo gdyby cwiczac nie tracilo sie jakis substancji energetycznych...

Z tego wynika to co napisałem wyżej, a w moim odczuciu zostało to podważone.

Chodzi jedynie o to by zadbać po treningu oporowym o aminokwasy, dodatek węglowodanów jest korzystny ze względu na wpływ na insulinę. Aminokwasy też nie są bez wpływu na insulinę. Kombinacja węglowodanów i białek(w tekście jest odniesienie do hydrolizowanych białek serwatkowych) w jednym napoju po treningu oporowym ma wpływ synergistyczny i stymuluje odpowiedz anaboliczną w sposób bardziej korzystny niż podanie, węglowodanów, czy białek osobno. Można powiedzieć nawet, że efekt kombinacji jest porównywalny do sumy efektów przy podawaniu białek i węglowodanów niezależnie. Naukowcy poszukujący optymalnego rozwiązania przy treningu oporowym na tym właśnie koncentrują swoją uwagę, a nie na uzupełnianiu glikogenu.

Z ellisa wypowiedzi zrosumiałem wiekszość, choć nie wszystko.

Chciałbym sie jeszcze zapytać czy zmiksowany Pro Longatum z bananem na mleku można przechowywać np przez parę godzin w lodówce? Wiem, że to nie jest kreatyna i nie zamienia się po czasie w kreatynine, ale czy ten właśnie szejk nie straci na wartości znacząco?

I wracając do tematu: czy taki połączenie(pro longatum + banan) skutecznie zastąpi gainery? Bo zdaję się, że właśnie go się w taki sposób stworzy.

taki mix wg mnie moze zastepowac gainera w pewnym stopniu...moze tez byc w lodowce bez problemu zostawiony...

ellis..problem w tym ze insulina nie jest pobudzana do sekrecji po treningu...nie sa tego w stanie stworzyc ww z bialkiem nawet...w innej porze owszem...ale nie po treningu
chyba ze mowa o krotkim nieintensywnym treningu...

Podczas treningu poziom insuliny jest zmniejszany, ale podniesienie go po treningu najlepiej kombinacją węglowodanów i białek to można powiedzieć nasz główny cel. Można powiedzieć jeszcze więcej nawet węglowodany podane przed treningiem mogą mieć wpływ na wydzielanie insuliny po treningu. Potwierdzają to badania i te z przed 10 lat(nie szukałem starszych) i te z 2006 roku, to są tekst, które w pierwszej kolejności wpadły mi pod rękę:

Carbohydrate ingestion/supplementation or resistance exercise and training.
Conley MS, Stone MH.

Department of Health, Leisure and Exercise Science, Appalachian State University, Boone, North Carolina, USA.

The physiological and performance effects of carbohydrate ingestion/supplementation on aerobic endurance exercise have been extensively studied. However, little attention has been given to the effects of carbohydrate ingestion on resistance exercise and training. Recent evidence suggests that resistance exercise can elicit a considerable glycogenolytic effect, which can lead to fatigue and strength loss. The ability of carbohydrate ingestion immediately before and during resistance exercise to enhance performance is unclear at present, however carbohydrate ingestion following resistance exercise has been shown to enhance muscle glycogen resynthesis. This may decrease recovery time following resistance exercise and enable an increase in training volume which may enhance physiological adaptations. Also, carbohydrate ingestion during or immediately after resistance exercise has been shown to increase postexercise insulin and growth hormone levels, which may lead to increased protein synthesis and hypertrophy, although this has not been systematically investigated. Despite the potential benefits of carbohydrate ingestion for performance of resistance exercise and adaptation to resistance training, at present little empirical evidence is available to support this hypothesis.

Effects of increasing insulin secretion on acute postexercise blood glucose disposal.
Kaastra B, Manders RJ, Van Breda E, Kies A, Jeukendrup AE, Keizer HA, Kuipers H, Van Loon LJ.

Department of Human Biology, Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM), Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands.

BACKGROUND: Coingestion of protein and/or free amino acids with carbohydrate has been reported to accelerate postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis due to an increase in the insulin response. PURPOSE: To determine the extent to which the combined ingestion of carbohydrate and a casein protein hydrolysate with or without additional free leucine can increase insulin levels during postexercise recovery in endurance-trained athletes. To determine how this affects whole-body plasma glucose disposal during postexercise recovery. METHODS: Fourteen male athletes (age: 24.3 +/- 0.8 yr; VO2max: 62.9 +/- 1.4 mL.kg.min) were subjected to three randomized crossover trials in which they performed 2 h of exercise (55% Wmax). Thereafter, subjects were studied for 3.5 h during which they ingested carbohydrate (CHO: 0.8 g.kg.h), carbohydrate and a protein hydrolysate (CHO-PRO: 0.8 and 0.4 g.kg.h, respectively), or carbohydrate, a protein hydrolysate, and free leucine (CHO-PRO-LEU: 0.8, 0.4, and 0.1 g.kg.h, respectively) in a double-blind fashion. Continuous infusions with [6,6-H2] glucose were applied to quantify plasma glucose appearance (Ra) and disappearance rates (Rd). RESULTS: Plasma insulin responses were 108 +/- 17 and 190 +/- 33% greater in the CHO-PRO and CHO-PRO-LEU trial, respectively, compared with the CHO-trial (P < 0.01). Plasma glucose responses were lower in the CHO-PRO and CHO-PRO-LEU trial compared with the CHO-trial (35 +/- 5 and 42 +/- 11% lower, respectively; P < 0.01). Plasma glucose Ra and Rd were greater in the CHO versus the CHO-PRO and CHO-PRO-LEU trials (P < 0.05). Glucose Rd represented 100 +/- 0.03% of Ra in all trials. CONCLUSIONS: The combined ingestion of a protein hydrolysate and/or free leucine with carbohydrate (0.8 g.kg.h) substantially augments insulin secretion, but does not affect plasma glucose disposal during the first 3.5 h of postexercise recovery in trained athletes.

Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects.
Koopman R, Wagenmakers AJ, Manders RJ, Zorenc AH, Senden JM, Gorselink M, Keizer HA, van Loon LJ.

Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands. [email protected]

The present study was designed to determine postexercise muscle protein synthesis and whole body protein balance following the combined ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and/or free leucine. Eight male subjects were randomly assigned to three trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein, and free leucine (CHO+PRO+Leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine was applied, with blood samples and muscle biopsies collected to assess fractional synthetic rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle as well as whole body protein turnover during 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+Leu compared with the CHO and CHO+PRO trials (+240 +/- 19% and +77 +/- 11%, respectively, P < 0.05). Whole body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole body protein synthesis rates were higher, in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials compared with the CHO trial (P < 0.05). Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared with the CHO+PRO trial. Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials. In the CHO+PRO+Leu trial, whole body net protein balance was significantly greater compared with values observed in the CHO+PRO and CHO trials (P < 0.05). Mixed muscle FSR, measured over a 6-h period of postexercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial compared with the CHO trial (0.095 +/- 0.006 vs. 0.061 +/- 0.008%/h, respectively, P < 0.05), with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial (0.0820 +/- 0.0104%/h). We conclude that coingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole body protein balance compared with the intake of carbohydrate only.

Ingestion of protein hydrolysate and amino acid-carbohydrate mixtures increases postexercise plasma insulin responses in men.
van Loon LJ, Kruijshoop M, Verhagen H, Saris WH, Wagenmakers AJ.

Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute NUTRIM, Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, 6200 MD Maastricht, the Netherlands.

To optimize the postexercise insulin response and to increase plasma amino acid availability, we studied postexercise insulin levels after the ingestion of carbohydrate and wheat protein hydrolysate with and without free leucine and phenylalanine. After an overnight fast, eight male cyclists visited our laboratory on five occasions, during which a control drink and two different beverage compositions in two different doses were tested. After they performed a glycogen-depletion protocol, subjects received a beverage (3.5 mL. kg(-1)) every 30 min to ensure an intake of 1.2 g. kg(-1). h(-1) carbohydrate and 0, 0.2 or 0.4 g. kg(-1). h(-1) protein hydrolysate (and amino acid) mixture. After the insulin response was expressed as the area under the curve, only the ingestion of the beverages containing wheat protein hydrolysate, leucine and phenylalanine resulted in a marked increase in insulin response (+52 and + 107% for the 0.2 and 0.4 g. kg(-1). h(-1) mixtures, respectively; P: < 0. 05) compared with the carbohydrate-only trial). A dose-related effect existed because doubling the dose (0.2-0.4 g. kg(-1). h(-1)) led to an additional rise in insulin response (P: < 0.05). Plasma leucine, phenylalanine and tyrosine concentrations showed strong correlations with the insulin response (P: < 0.0001). This study provides a practical tool to markedly elevate insulin levels and plasma amino acid availability through dietary manipulation, which may be of great value in clinical nutrition, (recovery) sports drinks and metabolic research.

Zmieniony przez - ellis w dniu 2006-10-16 10:01:33