Tu jest ten wywiad: po tlumaczenie dwoch pierwszych czesci idzcie na strone Dudu, aczkolwiek nie jest to najwierniejszy przeklad.
David and Daniel Camarillo - Part 1 of 3
February 10, 2001
Contributed by Ben Turner
Dan Camarillo armlocks his opponant for the win.
In a scene played out at thousands of Brazilian jiu-jitsu and Judo tournaments every year, I am watching Daniel Camarillo carefully and methodically choosing a grip as he clutches on to his opponent's lapels. What follows is a scene spectators of these tournaments incessantly hope for, but are rarely treated to see: Daniel suddenly changes levels, dropping to his knees, and in virtually the same instant that he throws his opponent to the ground, he has locked on an armbar for the tapout. It happens in the flash of an instant, and with his opponent left stunned in defeat, Daniel casually walks off the mat, head down.
This scene, and several others like it, are available for viewing at Daniel and David Camarillo's Web site:
http://www.2xtreme.net/jiujitsu/.
Daniel and David Camarillo are a rare breed of grappler, distinguished by their capabilities and accomplishments in both Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Judo. Daniel and David have been in Judo for over twenty years, and have practiced with and competed very successfully against some of the best Judokas in the world. With the advent of mixed-martial arts tournaments, and the recognition this brought upon Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Daniel and David began to turn their attention to this art as well. They continue to be high-level competitors in both sports, and David has additionally become an instructor for Ralph Gracie. Their records and victories, too great in number to fully list here (they are available at RalphGracie.com), span several different countries and include top placements at the Canadian Judo Open, the US Judo Open, the Senior National Judo Championships and the Joe Moreira and Rickson Gracie jiu-jitsu tournaments.
With one system begetting the other, Brazilian jiu-jitsu and Judo are two martial arts that in so many different ways become complementary to one another. But the natural rivalry that exists amongst many practioners in both arts has unsurprisingly been the source of constant debate, which for lack of a better term, typically (and unfortunately) revolves around "
Judo vs. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu". The debate has since evolved, and stretches from the "true" origins of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, to the technique contrasts between Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Judo, and whether they are even different arts at all.
In an effort to shed more light on the topic for readers, Sherdog.com sought out athletes who had achieved great distinction in both arts, and we found David and Daniel Camarillo willing and ready to speak openly. While we originally planned to focus the brunt of the discussion around the debate, we quickly realized that with the knowledge, background, and experience the Camarillo brothers shared, combined with their articulate and straightforward demeanor, they could offer our readers so much more. Sherdog.com would like to thank Daniel and David for their time, and with that, we present to you an exhaustive interview with the infamous Camarillo brothers.
Ben Turner: Can we talk about your backgrounds first, so the readers know where you're coming from? You both started off in Judo, because of your dad, at a really young age, right?
Dan Camarillo: Our father, Jim Camarillo, started in 1959, when he was 13 years old at the San Fernando Valley Japanese American Community Center. He was there for about 2 years. He stopped for quite a while, but got back into Judo when he moved to Bakersfield in 1971. Around 1976 is when I started, I think I was about 4 years old. I remember dad was always leaving at night going somewhere. So, one night I decided to find out why he was leaving all the time. "I’m going to Judo, do you want to go?" That was it. I started at the Bakersfield Judo club in Bakersfield CA.
Our father was completely dedicated to Judo. He would travel to Los Angeles 2 to 3 times a week just to practice at a club called Tenri Judo. Tenri at the time, in the early 80’s was one of the top clubs—they’ve produced four Olympians.
Dave Camarillo: Tenri was named after the famous dojo in Japan… a lot of tough guys came from there.
Dave Camarillo taps BJ Penn out with a trialngle choke.
Dan Camarillo: Because our father was so dedicated to Judo, he wanted David and I to be the same. In 1984 or 1985, when I was about 12, our father started his own Judo Club, called South Valley Judo. His club produced around 30 junior national champions, and four or five national champions. We had a great team at the time. We would train six days a week, and when a tough competition came around, we would train seven days a week. I remember getting up at 6AM on a Sunday morning to practice out on our back porch in the freezing cold--that is how dedicated our father was at us becoming good. Our whole team would show up.
Dave Camarillo: Our father’s dream was always to have Judo champions. When he had us we really didn’t have much of a choice but to train.
Dan Camarillo: When I was about 18, dad had a building made in the back yard, it could easily fit about five cars side by side. It had full sized bathroom, it was crazy. He did not park cars in it though, he laid totame mats on the floor, and these were the real totami mats, they hurt when you fell. We would train all the time in there.
Dave Camarillo: I started around the age of 5. I was running around and goofing off. I even fell asleep on the mat a few times. But I was young. From there I trained under him until I reached my last year in high school. We decided it would be better for me to move on to training where you had more bodies to work out with. So I moved in with father’s sensei at Fresno State Judo. I was there for two years, from age 18 to 20. In that time, I traveled had traveled to Japan a total of seven times.
Then I received a knee injury and could only do Ne Waza. I found the Gracies and practiced a whole year, driving 2 ½ hours every Saturday. Shortly after, they offered me a position teaching. So I moved. It was perfect--I had SJSU Judo and Jiu-Jitsu in the same area. From there I started training Jiu-Jitsu all the time. That was 4 years ago.
Ben Turner: So you've been in Judo for over 20 years now, and you’ve had some unique, once-in-a-life-time opportunities training experiences. Would you speak to that—about the places and people you've trained with?
Dan Camarillo: Yes, I have been in Judo for a while. My father was getting to be well known in Japan. I believe that was because of Mr. Imamura who we met in Fresno. We would drive to Fresno with a team almost every Friday night to train at Fresno State with Mr. Imamura for Judo. They had one of the best teams at the time. One of the hardest practices I have been to, still. Well, because of his contact with Mr. Imamura, we started to know a lot of top Japanese Judo players. My father would do a team exchange with Japan once every year for about six years. I have only been to Japan twice, once when I was about 15 or 16 and then again when I was 20.
The first time I went to Japan, we went everywhere. It was like a tour, but everyday, we had a competition, then a practice with the team we competed with. I think I lost most of the time, but this was well before I started to get good. The second time I trained at a University called Chuo. I think I was there for three weeks. The first week I was at Tsukuba University. At Chuo University they did no mat work at all, we trained almost eight hours a day. Two hours of running and two judo practices at three hours long apiece. It was hell if you ask me. But these guys were so good at standing, they would toss me left and right.
Throughout my Judo training, I have trained with a lot of top Judo players, including Yukiharu Yo****aka, who was one of the top in Japan, he used to come to our house and helped out every once in a while. Also, Otsugi Hirophumi, who won the US Open in America when he lived at our house for a year. We also had a guy from Tsukuba University in Japan, Hiroki Yamamoto, he was a team captain at Tsukuba. Tsukuba is one of the top places to train in Japan. I have even done standing with Oleg Taktarov, Gokor Chavichian, Joe Charles, Ralph Gracie, and Nino Schembri.
Dave Camarillo: I have had the pleasure of training with many world and Olympic champions. People like Okada, Yo****aka, and Sakai, who are all champions from Tsukuba University, which is where I spent most of my training in Japan. I have also trained at Toin High school. That was incredible, they were #2 under Tokai HS at the time. They had 3-hour practices. Very hard!
Judo training in Japan is incredibly demanding. Their training is ridiculous compared to the training we have here. There are way more guys to train with at every practice and every guy there has very good technique. Sometimes hear I choose certain guys, maybe lightweights, for a little rest, but in Japan the lightweights are normally much more aggressive. Their top 60kg players could rough me up in tachi waza easily. That’s 2 weight categories lower than the one I currently fight at which is 73kg. The longest time I spent in Japan was 3 months.
Ben Turner: Nino’s reputation really precedes him. What was it like training with him?
Dave Camarillo: I trained with him last summer and it was incredible. He tapped me 15 times like I was a white belt. I call his Jiu Jitsu magic Jiu Jitsu. He taps me with stuff I’ve never seen before. I’ve seen him tap black belts when they are on his back.
Dave Camarillo (left) and Nino (right).
Dan Camarillo: After about 6 months, I was getting used to BJJ, and could hold my own at the Academy. But then, a black belt from Barra Brazil came to stay for about a year. He just so happened to be Nino Schembri, one of the best. He was awesome, so fluid. I wish he was still here. I remember one time we went at it, we would start standing. I would throw him every time, but right when we landed, I was tapping. I think I threw him around 15 times, and tapped every time in about 5 seconds after we landed. I want to be that good someday.
Ben Turner: What about in Judo, who impresses you?
Dave Camarillo: I think Rhaudi Furgesson is the most exciting Judo player out there right now. I went to Korea with him and he was such a cool guy. He fights so hard and has a good combination of Ne Waza skills and Tachi Waza. For a big guy, he is incredibly fast. I saw him in the finals of the 2000 Senior Nationals, he pulled off this armlock that was so impressive.
Ben Turner: Gokor is always a big topic of discussion. We haven’t really had a chance to see his skills in competition too much, but we always hear rumors, particularly who he’s tapped or hasn’t tapped. Since you’ve had a chance to train with him, would you like to broach the topic of "how good is Gokor"?
Dave Camarillo: Gokor was a pretty good Judo player. He's a very nice guy. Always treated me good. He also has some great Judo players at his club.
Dan Camarillo: I met Gokor a long time ago. My father used to train with him at Tenri Dojo back in the day. I used to drive from Bakersfield to Hollywood to train at Gokor’s. I think it was at least two to three times a month that I would train at his dojo. He had a pretty good Judo team. He always made me feel important when I stopped by to train. He was always nice to me. I have not been there since I moved to the bay area. His Judo is pretty good, we used to do standing together in front of the class. Most of the time he would throw me. But the last time we went, I think I got the better of him. Once the UFC came out, this is when I heard about his Sambo. He then started a grappling class. I did train on the ground with him a few times. He is very strong on the ground, both physically and technically.
Ben Turner: How did you get started in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? Had you heard about it for a while and only eventually decided to go and try it out, or did you see it, and you found it was something that appealed to you right away?
Dave Camarillo: I saw Ralph fight in the Extreme Fighting Championships when I lived in Fresno. At the same time I had an injury to my knee. I was restricted to Ne Waza training only. So I looked on the Internet and they he had a studio in Pleasant Hill, which was a 2 ½ hour drive for me. So I checked it out. I remember being very nervous my first day. Ralph was there and just seeing him made me want to run away [laughter]. But he was extremely nice to me. He even let me train with him the 1st day! I couldn’t believe it. So of course, I was trying to prove something. I went hard. I didn’t understand why but every time I tried to pass his guard he would choke me. I was in shock at his technique. I just thought they trained more on the ground and that’s why they were better. But something was very weird! He was not going hard at all. And he wasn’t using his hands.
Dan Camarillo: I was in Japan at the time of the first UFC, and so was my brother. We got back from Japan almost at the same time, but when my brother got back he got a call from a friend of his telling him to watch some martial arts tournament on cable called the "Ultimate Fighting Championship." We didn’t know a thing about it, but he said a guy won and did not even get hit, it looked like he was using Judo.
My brother and I were both like, "We’ve got to see this!" Well, we watched the tape and David and I both thought, "Hey, that is exactly what we do, this is Judo." We sat there thinking, "We could beat some of these guys ourselves."
One more year and another UFC went by and David and I moved to Fresno to train at the Fresno State Judo Club. I do not remember how long after we moved, but David popped his knee and could not do any Judo standing only, mat work. So he decided to check out the Gracies and see what they were all about.
Dave Camarillo: I saw Ralph fight in the Extreme Fighting Championships when I lived in Fresno. At the same time I had an injury to my knee. I was restricted to Ne Waza training only. So I looked on the Internet and they he had a studio in Pleasant Hill, which was a 2 ½ hour drive for me. So I checked it out. I remember being very nervous my first day. Ralph was there and just seeing him made me want to run away [laughter]. But he was extremely nice to me. He even let me train with him the 1st day! I couldn’t believe it. So of course, I was trying to prove something. I went hard. I didn’t understand why but every time I tried to pass his guard he would choke me. I was in shock at his technique. I just thought they trained more on the ground and that’s why they were better. But something was very weird! He was not going hard at all. And he wasn’t using his hands.
Dan Camarillo: My brother would drive from Fresno to Pleasant Hill every week. At Fresno State, I believe I was one of the best at mat work already. David kept telling me I should go with him to the Gracie Academy, but I was still beating David, and I still had it in my head that Judo was just as good. So it took me a while to make that first step. Two months go by and David is getting better and better, he still can’t beat me but I can tell he is getting better. So I decided to go and try out Cesar and Ralph Gracie.
Ben Turner: What were your first impressions of it? Were you like, "This is just Judo" and skeptical of its merits at first, or did you see the benefits and efficacy immediately?
Dave Camarillo (left) with Ralph Gracie (right).
Dan Camarillo: When I walked in, I saw a bunch of white belts and blue belts. Here I am a 2nd degree black in Judo and thinking, "Why should I have to wear a white belt?" I hadn’t put on a white belt in over 15 years. Cesar Gracie was there, along with Ralph.
The first guy I rolled with was a good Blue Belt. I almost passed his guard, I was in half guard and having trouble, but David told me that was good, cause he was one of the best in class. Well, he tapped me, I think it was a choke. Then I went with Ralf Ruller. He was so strong and I remember him asking me, so what belt are you in Judo, and I told him, I think he took me lightly, it was funny. He did tap me the first time, but I at least tapped him much later the same day. After practice I came to the conclusion that Jiu-Jitsu is much more technical and I wanted to know more! I had a problem with new blue belts and here I am a junior national champion in Judo. So I could not imagine how good their purple, brown and black belts would be.
After a couple of months, I began to notice what was so different. They focused on how to attack properly without any space and without error. They would show you the smallest details to every single move. I was never shown this at any Judo clubs anywhere.
Dave Camarillo: When I saw and heard about it, yeah, I thought it was just judo. I thought these guys just focus on the ground. I thought I was good on the ground until I experienced Jiu-Jitsu. I was wrong!
Ben Turner: You’ve had over twenty years of experience in Judo, four or five years of experience in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. You trained with some of the best grapplers in the world in Judo, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and Sambo. You’ve trained at some of the best clubs. You walked into Ralph’s with the same bias anyone in Judo might have, after having practiced it your entire life. Based on everything you know, and your expertise in all of these arts, are Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Judo two different arts?
Dave Camarillo: They are very different arts. Judo is harder to learn than Jiu-Jitsu. But Jiu-Jitsu is harder to become great at. I think Jiu-Jitsu has endless possibilities. There are so many techniques that haven’t even been discovered yet. And there are some that are created right in front of my eyes almost everyday. Bottom line, Judo on the ground is forced and less technical. Jiu Jitsu is pure technique. Technique is not forced. It is used. The more technique the guy has, the less muscle and force he has to use.
I remember Nino talking about this. He said that if he had to use any kind of force to get something than he was doing it incorrectly. He found a way around it using technique, not strength. Don’t get me wrong, I think speed and strength can be utilized in training. But technique must be learned first.
I think I learned kind of fast because of how weak I am, I am not a strong person--even for my size. I hate lifting weights for one thing. They are too heavy [laughter]! But this is obvious in my matches in Judo. I get over powered and if not for my Jiu-Jitsu and speed I would get killed. I am always the only guy that is eating a full meal the night before major tournaments. Everyone else is losing weight and starving themselves. And here I am walking into weigh-ins eating something and still weighing in 2 kilograms under. They all look at me like "what the hell are you doing here!" The guys I fight are monsters.
Ben Turner: Can you talk about how you've been able to incorporate Judo in BJJ competition and BJJ in Judo competition successfully?
Dave Camarillo: Well in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I have used a lot of Judo mainly in the open weight class competitions. Those big guys usually, because of their strength, focus more on passing. Therefore they spend more time trying to go on top. And for me that’s what I want to do. I use throws, grip fighting and balance to keep the fight in my favor.
Now in Judo, I use much more Jiu-Jitsu techniques, than I use Judo techniques, in BJJ competitions. The thing that I had to make sure I was getting was the speed. In Judo you have a very limited time to do anything when you hit the ground. It also depends on the referee. The rules in Judo favor the person with better Tachi waza. Knowing that, I had to make my attacks on the ground as fast as possible. I also started using flying armlocks. I had heard of them and I saw a few guys using them but only in Jiu-Jitsu competitions. I saw Nino use a flying triangle and thought why can’t I do that in Judo? So I just started doing it in training. And it worked. I just basically jumped right to triangle but instead of choking cause it would never work cause of the time restriction, instead I just went for the arm. I have made this work many times in competitions. But now they are wise to it. I have to figure something out. Like working on my tachi waza.
Dan Camarillo: BJJ helped my Judo so much. I do not have any fear on the mat anymore, at all. I used to not like mat work and now I love it. In Judo, to get out of a mat situation, the easiest way is to ball up, that is if you can not stand. What will happen, the ref will see that there is no progress so they will stand you back up, starting the match again. This is a false sense of safety. It’s a horrible habit, but I used to do it, and I still see top Judo players doing it. After BJJ, I never did it again. BJJ has helped me a lot on my arm locks. I can now hit an arm lock from almost any position.
This is where Judo helps my BJJ. In BJJ we start standing, just like in Judo. Most of the time, I can get a throw in and start the match with a two-point lead. In 1998, at the Santa Cruz US open, I threw everyone and right when we would land, I had an arm lock. BJJ guys are not used to being thrown, so when it happens, they often leave themselves open for armlocks as they fall to the mat. It is getting harder though. I don’t have the luxury of a surprise attack as people out there know we are good at judo and try to neutralize that by staying much lower and pulling you to guard.
David and Daniel Camarillo - Part 2 of 3
February 10, 2001
Contributed by Ben Turner
Dan Camarillo taps his opponant for the win in Submission Wars II.
Ben Turner: Can you talk about some of your favorite throws, or good Judo throws to use in a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu tournament. Can you likewise talk about some good ground techniques Judokas should master from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to help their competition game?
Dave Camarillo: My favorite throw by far is that one where you use your left hand around his right leg and turn facing him while you hook with your second foot his outside outer reaping leg and then you spin and follow through with… wait where was I?
Dan Camarillo: I use Uchi-mata a lot in competition along with my foot sweeps. Both of these throws help in a big way. Most opponents will land with an arm exposed if I used these throws. The Uchi-mata helps against wrestlers, they love to grad a leg, and if they are not used to Uchi-mata, it makes it very easy for me to counter their single leg takdowns.
Ben Turner: So what level are you at in BJJ now?
Dave Camarillo: I am a brown belt. But the belt is falling apart and revealing the black core of it. So [laughing] maybe soon!
Dan Camarillo: In 1999 I did not train at all except only for a couple of weeks to compete at the Santa Cruz US Open. I believe this is why I am only a purple. I do not know why I stopped, but I am still hearing it from my teammates. Which is good, so now maybe I won’t do it again. I do not recommend anyone taking time off if they can avoid it. A month maximum, any longer and you will feel it when you come back.
Ben Turner: Can you talk about your experiences in Brazil, where you trained, and what you did?
Dave Camarillo: I have trained at Barra Gracie twice in the last 3 years. I was there last summer for 2 months. I competed in the Worlds at brown belt and lost in the semi final by 2 points.
I trained with guys like Soca, Nino, and Ryan. All are incredible black belts. I also trained with many other belts there. There’s so many guys on the mat and they are all good.
Training with Nino is crazy though. The first time I was a purple belt, he just played with me. One time, I think I even have a picture of it, he had me in a choke, and armlock, and my leg bending back behind my head! I was tapping from all three.
Ben Turner: How do you think takedowns in Judo compare to takedowns in wrestling? Do you also crosstrain in wrestling at all?
Dave Camarillo: Well takedowns in wrestling are the best way to get you opponent to the ground. As far as scoring in a Judo competition--they are not that effective. The reason for this is the gi. It is easy to stop a shot in judo because all I have to do is get a hold of the gi. I never really wrestled before. When I train without the gi, I use a lot of takedowns but I am no wrestler!
Dan Camarillo: Judo takedowns are great! I do believe that most wrestling takedowns are better, but not all. Judo you learn with a gi, and in wrestling you don’t and I think that is why wrestling is better. But, I have learned something in Judo that I do not think you learn in wrestling, that is how a person moves. I don’t mean by what attack he will do, but by how he walks, how to get him to react a certain way. For instance, in Judo one of the hardest throws to execute is a foot sweep. It’s easy to learn, but the hardest to execute. To foot sweep someone you have to know when they are going to step, how far, where their weight is, and you have to be faster then they are. This is the move that helps me with wrestlers.
I train with Batata, who is good at takedowns, and sometimes we only train takedowns. He does take me down more then I can him, but I do catch him, and it’s with my foot sweeps. The only other throw that helps against a wrestler is Uchi Mata. (
http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uchimata.htm) I am a tall guy for my weight, so most of the guys I fight are shorter, and when they get low, these two throws are the ones I use.
Ben Turner: Can you talk about the Olympics a little? Is this something you are seriously going out for, and does this mean you’re going to have to slow down on the BJJ?
Dave Camarillo: The Olympics are a goal of mine. I think I have what it takes in my mind to be that caliber of an athlete. As far as my training goes I am in a spot. The more Jiu-Jitsu I train, the less I can focus on what is needed for that goal. When I got back from Japan the last time I was there my throwing skills were at their best. But I took two years off of Judo to focus on Jiu-Jitsu. I saw a huge difference in my ground ability, but at the same time my tachi waza suffered.
The 99 senior nationals was the first tournament that I competed at after my 2 year absence. I had 2 Judo practices under my belt prior and was not even training in Jiu-Jitsu because I was sick at the time. I had 7 fights, only losing to Jimmy Pedro. I think I was mentally ready and that’s obviously a huge part of one on one type sports.
Dan Camarillo: I have always wanted to go to the Olympics. But I have to admit, I did not train hard enough. Yes I went to Japan to train, and yes I trained hard while being there, but when I could get away with it, I would skip out and not train. Everyone always told me I had the ability to be one of the best, but I never took it seriously enough. It made my father mad. I have always wanted to be with friends and go out to do things instead of practice. When it came to time to get serious about my living condition, it was too late. I had to get a job. It takes a lot of money to make it, and serious dedication. I quit Judo right after the Senior Nationals 1997. I think it had to do with my girlfriend and my parents at the time. I was stressing out so bad, that by the time the 1997 Nationals came, I weighed in about 148lbs, and my weight was 160lbs. Just before this tournament was the National Ladder in Florida 1996 (
http://recsports.tamu.edu/judo/ladder.html). I threw all my opponents in under 30 seconds. But again, I was stressed out and just needed to get away from it, I moved to the Bay area to work and train with Ralph Gracie.
David and Dianiel Camarillo with Allan Goes (center).
Ben Turner: What tournaments are you going to be in soon? What about Abu Dhabi, have you ever been approached to compete in that? Did you consider going out for the trials?
Dan Camarillo: I love to compete and hope to compete soon, but I have to pay for all my traveling and it makes it hard. I wanted to go to the Las Vegas tournament in Feb, but I will try to save enough to make it to the Pan Ams. As for Abu Dhabi, I have not even thought about it, this is David’s department. I do not even train much without a gi. I think I should though. Maybe in the future, but right now, I want to get my brown, then black belt.
Dave Camarillo: Well I was going to compete in that upcoming Vegas Jiu-Jitsu tournament but suffered a shoulder injury while training. I am unlucky with injuries. In Jiu-Jitsu I only have one World Championship competition behind me. I lost to the number one guy in the semi final. I have trouble with points and need to work on that.
About Abu Dhabi, I would like to fight in that but right now I am training with the gi and am trying to get my black belt. That’s mainly what I am focusing on right now. You know getting rid of the holes in my game.
Ben Turner: Have you thought about trying to get a sponsor?
Dave Camarillo: Yeah I need a money sponsor. I am working for
www.unemployed.com they have great hours and wonderful benefits. I hope to someday be CEO.
Dan Camarillo: Right now I have a couple of sponsor, Howard Combat Kimono’s and OnTheMat.com. Howard is a very nice guy, and he is very professional. OnTheMat.com, well, I train with those guys, and they are all great. I would like to find another sponsor that would help pay for these trips! I think traveling is very expensive for athletes and the competitors who have potential but need help with funds should have a way to get to the competitions. I will always be loyal to Howard, and wear his gi’s.
Once I get more exposure then I will get serious about looking for a sponsor who can help with the traveling. I don’t know if Howard supports some of his guys that way, maybe I should ask.
Ben Turner: Is there anyone out there that you’d like to compete against, in particular? Obviously you probably don’t want to mention names that you have specific grudges against, but are there people out there who you want to fight because of the challenge they would pose to you?
Dan Camarillo: I would love to compete against anyone who is my weight and in my division. I am always curious as to where I am and what level I could or should be at. I think one of the Serra brothers are purple, and have been told that they are very good. But as far as challenging someone, I don’t do that. On second thought, there is a guy in Fresno who I met a while ago. He has done nothing but caused problems. When I met this guy, he claimed to be a Ralph Gracie Black belt and told David and me that if anyone challenged him, Ralph would come down and protect him. This was before we met Ralph. When we met Ralph we asked him, who this guy was. At the time, Ralph has not given even a purple belt to anyone. So we went back to this guy in Fresno and then he changed his story, "Oh, I got it from Rorion Gracie." Yeah right. This guy in Fresno claims to be a Black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu is making money off of people who believe him. One of our students at Pacific Martial Arts in Fresno who is a Blue Belt used to tap him. He badmouths David and me. So yes I would love to challenge him. His name is Phil Sneedly. I do not like to challenge or have any problems with anyone, but when someone claims something they are not, and do not even have the skills to back it up, then they talk bad about me and David and Ralph, I just have to say something about it.
Dave Camarillo: I think there are many guys in Brazil that would be a challenge. But as far as tournaments go, I am not too keen on the idea. I don’t really like the Jiu-Jitsu tournament game. I would like to compete at the Worlds again, but I get more satisfaction out of learning. When I am doing new things or training with guys I’ve never trained with, like in Brazil, I feel open and that my game is expanding. I also love it when Ralph comes up with new stuff. He’s incredible. He plays with so many positions and attacks and I am so lucky to have him as a teacher.
Ben Turner: A lot of people are debating the merits of BJJ vs. Judo, there have been accusations that BJJ is simply Judo ne waza. How do you respond?
Dan Camarillo: Judo would have better matwork if the rules did not hurt it. In Judo, you have to be active on the mat or they will stand you up. Most Judo guys hate the mat, they tend to ball up (giving your back) and wait until they call Mate (stop). Meaning, Judo players have bad habits. It took me a while to get rid of these habits. Not only this, I have not been to any Judo club, in the US or Japan, that teaches matwork as technical as any Jiu-Jitsu schools I have been too.
Dave Camarillo takes first place ias a blue belt.
Dave Camarillo: Well I have to start this by saying a little more about where I come from. First of all, I am a student of Ralph Gracie. Anyone who knows him knows his style. He is a fighter. What I have learned from him is attacking Jiu-Jitsu. Not point Jiu-Jitsu. So when I compare Judo to Jiu-Jitsu I am really comparing it to Ralph’s Jiu-Jitsu.
I have a book that has awesome techniques in it, its Ne Waza of Kashiwazaki. He is one of the best ever in Ne Waza out of Japan. This book is great. I've looked it over and saw many moves that I have learned in Jiu-Jitsu. But I have also seen moves in this book that I would never do for many reasons. First of all I never pin anyone. Anyone who has seen my Judo fights knows I’ve never won one with a pin. And even in Judo practice I never pin. My coach David Williams even gets on me saying that I can only pin from now on. No armlocks, no chokes, I’m like "You might at well tie my hands to my legs." So the pins in there are worthless unless you are in a Judo match. And that also discourages the student to attack from that position as well. They just hold the guy and wait for the 25 second win. There is no incentive to attack because of the possibility of losing the pin. Another reason is that some of the moves leave arms or legs exposed. Meaning if the guys you are training with knows what he is doing then you are open to his attacks. Which is very dangerous. There are also moves that look hard to pull off because of the angle. I just think there are easier ways to accomplish the same thing.
There are also things that play a role like attributes. Things like speed, strength, flexibility, and endurance. To me, these things have nothing to do with technique. When I see a huge muscled guy forcing a move and it works I have a hard time thinking that he used his technique to achieve the outcome. I think in Judo strength is a key attribute for success. There is also a high level of technique in Judo but I’ve never seen a guy at a high level perform well without being strong or in good shape. In Jiu-Jitsu I see it all the time. The level of technique is at such a different level that sometimes there is little movement in the match. I always tell my students that you must have 3 kinds of a Jiu-Jitsu game. Fast! Slow! And both. Meaning slow at times and fast at times. The slow game is something highly discouraged in Judo. They tell us to be as fast as can be with everything you do. Which is what you need in a Judo Competition. But the most impressive thing to me is seeing a Jiu-Jitsu guy barely moving and still tapping someone silly. As if it took no effort at all. I am just now working and developing my slow game. But I do love training fast.
Bottom line for those who know both arts: know that they are very different in purpose and application. Also you never hear of Jiu-Jitsu guys claming they are the best at throws, but they do use them. I here a lot of trash talk coming from judo guys that they are this and that on the ground. Even saying that Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are the same. Well they are not. I feel that after training with guys like Nino that there are no Judo guys that I have ever seen or fought that could come close to them on the ground.
I had some problems like you guys might have read about, concerning some Judo guys that have had some harsh words towards my teacher or me. One time I was at Judo practice and a guy who is known for having good Ne Waza was there. He is a very strong and fit guy. He is much bigger than I am. I know, hard to believe huh? We were training together and he was making some mistakes as he tried to pass my guard so I caught him in a few armlocks and every time I would let go of him I would do a roll backwards to roll away and start again. Well he seemed to get angry with me and jumped on my back all furious and aggressive. So I would just get him again. He did this twice. After the second time I got angry and roughed him up. We shared some words. I told him that I was finished with him and to not jump on my back after I tap him. Then the time ran out and I found another partner but this guy refused to let me go saying he wanted to go again. I decided to relax and I left practice saying I didn’t want to cause a problem. I think that is a good example of a smaller guy defeating a bigger stronger one with technique.
Ben Turner: So what happens when you roll with judo guys on the ground?
Dave Camarillo: Depends on the guys. But normally I just use their mistakes and capitalize on it. I also learn how to deal with very strong, in shape guys. These guys are very impressive. They are awesome athletes and learn so fast. My friend Chuck Jefferson is using things like triangle armlocks that I think he picked up by just watching me. That’s a small bit of my game that he has picked up compared to what he has taught me though. He’s an incredible Judo Player.
If I don’t know the guy I am training with, and he is a big guy sometimes he gets all mad when I finish him. I don’t get it. I mean if I am better then you and I beat you on the ground, so what? They think like Neanderthals, like just because they are bigger than me that they should destroy me on the mat. I actually think that’s one of the best feelings. Beating guys who think you will be easy. I am glad I am a small person. With Jiu-Jitsu I never need to feel like I want to be bigger.
Sometimes when I train with Judo guys I do have a little trouble finishing. There was a time where this guy wanted to see what my armlocks were like. He was a former Olympian. So when I went to my guard. He did nothing! He just grabbed my belt and held me down. Now he was so strong that I couldn’t really move. We are talking about a guy that outweighs me by at the least 50 lbs. He was so strong that I couldn’t generate much. This just proves one thing. First of all, that guy has no technique and second of all, that defense is ten times easier to accomplish than offense is. If I have a guy that is so scared of my Jiu- Jitsu and just sits there holding me down and he outweighs me by a great amount that it is sometimes difficult. After this I thought I should work on guys just being defensive. So I train for that now. I train for big guys to just sit on me and hold me down. I can now generate many more attacks and can also create space and movement on big defensive guys. Of course that guy talked a lot after that. But its ok, I am used to Judo guys talking a lot.
Dan Camarillo (right) and John Lewis (left) at the Joe Morreira tournament.
Dan Camarillo: I sometimes poke my head in at San Jose State Judo club with my brother. San Jose is the 2nd top Judo club in the US. They are good and they do focus on mat work as well. When I do roll with them, I do not have a problem or even get into any trouble, and I do tap them.
Ben Turner: Dave, you’ve competed with Jimmy Pedro a couple of times. Can you talk about who Jimmy is, so readers know the kind of pedigree you’ve gone up against in competition, and then what happened when you went against one another?
Dave Camarillo: Correction: I fought him once.
If you don’t know Jimmy Pedro and you’re a judo player than there’s something wrong. But for everyone else he is the 1999 World Champion. He’s an incredible Judo player and made short work of me in the 1999 senior nationals. He has in my opinion the best all around game in Judo today…well, he’s retired now but still.
My friend Cameron actually makes fun of me after seeing that match. I came into the academy and my girlfriend called me saying that she saw me on TV. I was all excited and said "For what?" She then told me it was for getting thrown by Jimmy Pedro. So I was famous for being a loser. Cameron play charades using a gi and throwing it like I got thrown by Jimmy. I get it right everytime.
Dan Camarillo: In the Nationals, David and Jimmy went to the ground a couple of times. I think about 4 times. David had him in trouble 2 times, one with an armlock, and Jimmy lifted him off the ground. One time Jimmy tried to pass him guard. David said it seems like he knew what he was doing, but he wasn’t too effective. David said he was so low on his legs, that he just put his hands behind his head, David defended his pass with just his legs. That was over a year ago, David is much better now. I don’t think David would have too much of a problem.
David and Daniel Camarillo - Part 3 of 3
February 10, 2001
Contributed by Ben Turner
Ben Turner: Would you say that the jiu-jitsu practiced in Brazil was close to Judo in the past, but it has evolved since then?
Dan Camarillo: It could have been the same, but like I said, that was a long time ago. Okano and Medhi could have trained the same techniques and that could well be the same that was passed to the Gracies. But to be honest, it’s changed so much and the Gracies did go their own way. The top place for groundwork is Barra Gracie in Rio. They have too many top BJJ guys coming out of there. Nino told me they learn new moves almost all the time. David also told me, when he goes there, he picks up on all the latest moves that they create and its the place to go to get the latest moves. Things have changed and the rules of Judo keep injuring the matwork for Judo.
BJJ is different. They are always finding new mat techniques in BJJ all the time. Yes I have seen some of the same techniques, not all of them. I have some Judo books from Japan, with hundreds of matwork techniques in them, some are good and some I have not seen in BJJ, but most of them have bad habits, leaving an arm exposed, or a knee. I would have to say at one point the matwork was close, but not anymore. The Gracies have perfected the art, and all the new top BJJ guys out there are coming up with more and more techniques never seen before. The longer BJJ is out there, the more it is pulling away from Judo and it already has pulled far enough away to be on its own.
So no matter if it was the same way back in the days, it is not anymore! I trained at the top Judo club in Japan, I had just finished High School at the time, and their matwork was good, but only for a Judo player. Nowhere near as good as what I have learned today.
I am not trying to put Judo down in anyway at all. I love it, it helps me so much, but I have gotten rid of 90% of the matwork I have learned from it.
Dave Camarillo: I have a hard time thinking that it is like anything I see in Jiu-Jitsu today. I am young so I was never around for Judo of the past. But I think it was better before in the past than it is now but not like today. Does that make sense? Like everything Jiu-Jitsu evolves. While ne waza in Judo declines as a necessity in competition Jiu-Jitsu techniques get better and more refined.
Ben Turner: Can you be more specific about the moves and techniques in jiu-jitsu that are new and coming out of Brazil? What are some moves that don’t exist in Judo?
Dave Camarillo: I think the basics are not there in Judo. I have white belts with better technique. There isn’t, and its sad, one active Judo player at my club that knows how to pass the guard properly, without me showing them. And the coaches that are in charge now don’t seem to want my help. There are guys in there that teach me so much about Judo, I just want to return the favor to my teammates.
I was discussing this to the coach and he said that one of my students wouldn’t be able to beat a strong judo guy with good basics. Well Ralph has a blue belt in San Francisco that could beat everyone there on the ground no problem. I think it’s hard for a Judo coach to believe. He would also get thrown by everyone there but so what, that’s just where he isn’t proficient. All this started when I was attacked verbally by Judo players who thought they were the only grapplers. And this is my response. Why doesn’t someone when they see something better come along open their eyes to it and change? I don’t get it.
Many techniques in Judo Ne waza are applied a certain way because of the restrictions of the Judo rules. It’s the rules that give the Judo player the wrong strategy. I mean really, what is the point of holding someone down for 25 seconds? It’s just not what I am used to. This is why Judo ne waza has declined. I think another reason for this is because of the referees. I think they have too much control and if one such ref doesn’t like ne waza then you have a match where there is only tachi waza. I think this is the problem with American Judo players today. They are lazy when it comes to learning ne waza because they don’t have to know it to be successful in the United States. Well in Europe that isn’t the case. I think that is why I was so successful in Italy. It was my first trip to Europe and I took the bronze in an A level tournament. You see in Europe they like ne waza. I saw more that these guys were aggressive towards me when the match went to the ground. This creates opportunities for me. This is totally opposite of what I am used to in the U.S. Guys in the U.S. just run away from me or cover up or try and get to their feet. Which is a good strategy. The guys I fight right now are very good Judo players. Guys like Ryan Reser and Orlando Fuentes.
Dave Camarillo teaches Maynard, the lead singer of the band "Tool," a move.
My matches in Italy were fast. I was using a wide range of Tachi waza and ne waza along with moves I’ve never seen anyone else do in tournaments like the flying armlock. I don’t mean to sound like I am trying to blow my own horn but it just frustrates me that I never received the proper acknowledgement in the magazines like Real Judo, which is the magazine that everyone reads for information on U.S. Judo. People even make jokes that it should be called the Jason Morris and Jimmy Pedro magazine because that’s all you hear about. They would rather talk about the Olympic team and how they are doing. It should report on all upcoming Judo athletes. I mean its not like we get any funding. And I know I am the only one who says what’s on my mind about it all. I hear these things all the time but it’s always a whisper.
Dan Camarillo: The main things that come to mind. I was never taught how to escape the armlock properly. NEVER. You will see even names like Jimmy Pedro do it incorrectly. Which he did when he fought David. David puts him in an armlock and he lifts instead of stacks. But this is because of the rules. The rules are, if you lift your opponent off the ground, they will stop the match.
In judo they have taught me how to defend the choke, and how to defend the armlock, but never how to escape these moves. I now know how to escape if someone gets my back, a choke, an armlock, and some escapes help you attack while escaping.
How many Judo guys know how to apply a reverse triangle? Maybe 5% if that. David caught the #1 guy in his weight in 40 seconds with a reverse triangle at the Nationals.
A Judo guy will give his back at will. Or how about proper arm placement while in a side control pin? I was never taught that in Judo. Or even doing a Kesa-Gatame pin (
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1965/apr65/judotech/judotech.html), in Judo it is good, in Jiu-Jitsu, with the jiu-jitsu rules, I will get out of that pin and have your back.
A lot of the Judo throws are also bad to do in jiu-jitsu, making you end up with your back to your opponent, or even an arm exposed. One throw in particular, it’s almost like a seo (over-the-back throw), but you put your arm over your opponents and then continue to roll using your weight and momentum. I love this throw being used on me, I will allow them to throw me just so I can end up with their arm, in an armlock.
Even the same moves in Judo that I see in BJJ, the BJJ is still more technical then the Judo move.
Ben Turner: What do you think about the efficacy of Brazilian jiu-jitsu on the streets? Have you guys ever had to use to apply it to real life? A lot of critics say Brazilian jiu-jitsu is dangerous, that going to the ground is the last thing you want to do in a fight, and using armbars and leglocks are unrealistic.
Dave Camarillo: I have 100% confidence in Jiu-Jitsu as a street fighting art. I have used it before in fights. I do not fight much but when I do it always works. And I would have no problem fighting someone much bigger than me. It’s all about technique.
Dan Camarillo: I have been in several real fights, the bigger they are, the more important it is to use a choke. My brother has also used armlocks to finish the guy in a real fight. I have also used that. My friend who I train with, fought a wrestler, he finished him with an armlock, making him scream in pain at a party. My same friend fought another guy on the side of the road that out weighed him by 40lbs, a real big guy. I think around 215lbs, he got pushed up against a fence, so my friend put him in a triangle and put him to sleep.
I could go on and on.
Do you ever hear of Ryan getting his ass beat in a fight? Or Rickson, they both grew up fighting on the streets, same with Ralph, Renzo.
Ben Turner: We’ve heard you speak a lot about the merits of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. What do you think are some of the drawbacks?
Dave Camarillo: The only drawback I have seen are when you get to a certain level in your training it becomes easier and easier to beat the lower belts. So you have to train twice as hard as normal. But it’s not that big of a deal.
Ben Turner: Would you change any of the rules in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu tournaments? What do you think about Rorion’s first to tap/15 points no-time-limit rules?
Dan Camarillo: I think those rules sound good. That would make both opponents fight instead of one scoring and stalling the whole time. I am tired of fighting these guys who score and lay there. I heard there is a stalling rule, but no one uses it.
Dave Camarillo (top) training with Ryan Gracie (bottom).
Ben Turner: What was it like living with Ryan in Brazil? His reputation really precedes him. Is the public perception of him as a lawless, undisciplined brawler without respect for anyone a bit inaccurate?
Dave Camarillo: Totally inaccurate. He is one of the nicest people I have ever met. He was everything I thought he would be when I first met him. He took great care of me in Brazil. I always felt safe with him around. But it is true that he is ready at all times.
Ben Turner: Ryan has demonstrated the best wrestling out of all the Gracies, has he been cross training a lot?
Dave Camarillo: I just see him training in the academy. He’s incredibly fast and technical. He’s an animal.
Ben Turner: Dan, what’s this about a new judo throw you’ve invented?
Dan Camarillo: When I lived in Fresno I used to train with Oleg Taktarov. He would stop by from time to time even to stay at my house. He taught me how to apply Leg Locks, and rolling knee bars. Well, one time at a local Judo tournament, I went for a throw, got stuck cause the guy tried to counter, well, lets just say it involved the rolling knee bar. I threw him for Wazari and then pinned him with a triangle mount. Everyone asked me what that move was. I did not know what to say cause it was the first time. But what I found out was, if you do it right you can not get out of it, you can not even turn to land on your stomach. I still do not know if its legal or not, but it must be, cause I did not get any penalty. I will look into it more soon and when I know it’s a good throw and that everyone should learn it, I will let everyone know.
Dave Camarillo: I have a new ukemi that I was working on against Jimmy!
Ben Turner: What is Ralph been up to? People say he’s ready to come back to MMA, others say he is nursing a bad shoulder.
Dave Camarillo: He has many academies now, San Francisco, Dublin, and Mountain View. I see him maybe twice a week. He comes in shows some new stuff and trains.
Dan Camarillo: I do not ask Ralph too many questions. Maybe I should, but I feel that if he wants people to know, they would. I think he has an invite to the Abu Dhabi, don’t know if he is going to go. He is the same age as me, so he has some years left and I am sure you will see him again fighting real soon.
Ben Turner: Did you ever train with BJ Penn when he was at Ralph’s? What was that like?
Dan Camarillo: I used to train with BJ all the time. We had our wars. I used to tap that boy, but I don’t think I could anymore at all. The last time I talked to him, he said, you know, I don’t think I have every tapped you, but I remember the one time he did. We where training guard pass drills. I got in his closed guard then started. I stood up to do the standing pass, he stayed on me like as if he was glued to me. Anyway, he got my back while I was standing and then rear naked choked me. He was a blue belt at the time. He was still at Ralph’s when he was a purple, I think the last time we trained, he did not tap me but he did pass my guard.
Dave Camarillo: B.J. was like a brother to me. He should have never left.
Ben Turner: What kind of training regiment do you have? Is there something specific in training that you work on a lot (like say, drills) that a lot of people tend to ignore?
Dave Camarillo: My favorite drill is one I made up. I use when training with my Friend Kurt Osiander. He’s an awesome brown belt in San Francisco. I put him in my closed guard. The rules are this, he tries to pass and I can not sweep or stand up. I only attack and defend my guard. Every time he passes I do 20 pushups. If I finish him he does pushups. The time varies.
Dan Camarillo: The questions should be, "What kind of training should I be doing?" It seems like for me, at the end of the year I get lazy. For the month of December I did not train at all. But I am now picking it back up and will be back 100% soon. Not only that, Ralph called me and told me to be there, so I have no choice! Hehe.. Specifics, well, I don’t want to get into what I am working on, it will tell everyone where my weak spots are, but yes, I am working on a few things. My brother helps me a lot, me and him go at it! Everyone says they like to see us two train cause it’s like a war….
Ben Turner: What is your least favorite position to be in when you’re in BJJ?
Dan Camarillo: I think it goes for almost everyone--I do not like someone to get my back, when they do I feel it is almost over. It is a scary feeling, especially if David is the one on my back.
Dave Camarillo: HALF GUARD!!! First of all I never use it. And when I am in it, in training, its OK, because I only try to finish. But when I am in it in a tournament, I get upset because if you try and submit and he defends and sits up on top of you, he gets the points and that is exactly what happened in the Worlds. I had his arm but he defended and sat up. Two points were awarded.
Ben Turner: What mixed-martial-arts fighters impress you the most? Whose style do you like the best?
Dave Camarillo: Ralph, Ryan, and Renzo are the best fighters in the world. I don’t like watching two non Jiu-Jitsu fighters fighting. I don’t see much technique.
Dan Camarillo: I love the Gracie’s style. I like watching Renzo, Ralph and Ryan, I think it would be great to see the brothers fight at the same NHB tournament. I have also liked watching Oleg, his determination to win is incredible.
Ben Turner: Why do you think we don’t ever get to see world-class Judoka in mixed martial arts or mixed grappling tournaments? Would you like to speculate on how you think they would do?
Dave Camarillo: Judo is a sport not a fighting art. The training is totally different. But there are some really tough guys in Judo. Remember Judo guys are strong, in shape athletes. They have to be because of the demands in the sport!
Dan Camarillo (right) wiht BJ Penn (left).
Dan Camarillo: I think some of them would do good, but they would need someone to prepare them. I just hope they would not give their back in a fight, that is one bad habit Judo guys have.
Ben Turner: Let’s talk technique for a moment. There’s been a lot of confusion on the Renzo-Sakuraba fight, specifically, what happened when Sakuraba went for the armlock. How do you think Renzo’s elbow got injured, because that specific armlock normally targets the shoulder, doesn’t it?
Dave Camarillo: I don’t really know. I think it was when he fell. Sakuraba was lucky. He fought well but is no where near Renzo’s technical ability.
Dan Camarillo: That is a shoulder lock. But it looks like what happened was, Renzo tried to pull out at the same time Sakuraba was trying to turn and take him down. All joints can be pulled out, and that is what happened. His elbow was pulled out and it looked more like bad timing. If you asked Sakuraba, "Were you trying to break the arm, or pull his elbow out of socket?" He would say "Break the arm." Then again, if his elbow did not come out, would his arm have broken? We will never know. Renzo is one of the best out there right now, he is taking on some big guys with power behind them.
Ben Turner: If someone put you in that position, how would you try and counter it?
Dave Camarillo: I would ask for better seats in the stands.
Dan Camarillo: I don’t know, I am no where near as good as Renzo, so I don’t think I should even attempt to answer that.
Ben Turner: This has been a really long, exhaustive interview, and you guys have been incredibly kind to lend us your time. I think everyone at Sherdog.com and all of our readers really appreciate the chance to talk with you guys and learn. Any final words?
Dave Camarillo: I would like to say in closing that Jiu-Jitsu is for everyone. You do not have to be strong, big, young, good looking, tall, short, ugly, crazy, lonely, or in love with nasty looking ears to enjoy it. It is all about pure technique. I would like to thank Ralph for letting me in on such a great art. And my brother for always being there… trying to armlock me!
Dan Camarillo: I just hope that people can open their minds a little more. I was there once and did not want to believe what I heard about Jiu-Jitsu being as good as it is. I just got my ass up and gave it a try. Now I am determined to learn as much as possible. I want to thank Ralph Gracie and our team for being there. And David, what is this "TRYING to armlock you" crap?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paweł Ziółkowski
---
"jest takie miejsce (ring lub klatka) gdzie małe dzieci płaczą, ale mamusia nie słyszy"
Renzo Gracie
wiraha
Krzysztof Piekarz
