Daoloth
Cześć wszystkim.Znalazłem właśnie w sieci taki artykulik, który dosyc
brutalnie traktuje o historii słynnych walk Helio Gracie z Kato i
Masahiko Kimurą.Autor uparcie twierdzi jakoby pierwszy przegrał przez
własna głupotę a drugi nie walczył na 100%.Poza tym krytykuje mocno
umiejetności Helio w walce ( zarowno w stojce jaki w parterze) i oskarża brazylijczyków o "cenzurę" w relacji z walk i przekłamywanie faktów.
Wiec jak to w końcu było?Eksperci proszeni o odpowiedź(hmm Boruta???).
SOGi itp jeżeli wam zależy będą za każdy
post- zwyczajowo.
Jedno ale- tekst jest po angielsku, nie miałem czasu go tłumaczyć ale
chyba wiekszośc poradzisobie bez problemów.
oto on:
"In the same year, Kimura fought Helio Gracie in Brazil. Since the
Gracie family is all the rage these days, it may be well to analyze
the account by Don Beu, "Put to the Test: The True Account of Gracie
Jujutsu’s Toughest Proving Ground," that appeared in the February
1990 issue of Karate/Kung-fu Illustrated. Graham Noble sent me a copy
of the article, adding that it was skewed toward Gracie. How right he
was. It’s "as biased as a scream from the dentist’s chair," to borrow
journalist Bugs Baer’s famous line.
Before he could fight Kimura, Gracie first had to fight another
Japanese named Kato, who purportedly weighed 180 pounds. Beu writes
that they first went to a draw - Gracie had a broken rib - and so
they went again. I have seen this bout in the film Gracie Jiu-Jitsu
(1988) and it is underwhelming. Gracie towered over the short Kato,
and though it is difficult to tell in a gi, I would say that Kato may
have had ten pounds on the 140-pound Brazilian, but certainly not
forty.
They began with Kato being conservative, biding his time. Kato moved
well; Gracie stood and moved like an amateur, foolishly picking his
feet up. He tried a couple of weak sweeps, a knee wheel that wasn’t
even close, and then turned into Kato for an attempt at a frontal
throw. When Kato didn’t budge, he jerked back out of it. Just after
this, Kato threw Gracie with what looked like a shoulder technique
(seoi-nage), a beautiful throw that bounced Gracie off the ropes and
back into the ring. A little higher and he would have been out into
the crowd and in great danger. Kato then threw Gracie under the ropes
using a scratchy tai-otoshi. After this, the referee brought the two
men back into the center. Near the ropes, Kato nailed Gracie with
another pretty shoulder throw. Here Kato made a fatal error. He
should have continued throwing Gracie at will until the Brazilian
quit. But on top of Gracie after the throw, he foolishly got into
groundwork and was caught by Gracie’s powerful choke from underneath.
Next it was Kimura’s turn. Going into this match on October 24, 1951,
Kimura was nine years younger and eighty pounds heavier than his
Brazilian opponent. Given Kimura’s unbeatable skill in both standing
and ground wrestling, one could reverse those figures, making Kimura
older and lighter, and he still would have prevailed. As it was, the
greater mass and youth promised certain doom for Gracie. That’s my
physiological judgment. Philosophically, bear in mind that there is
no distance greater than that between an accomplished amateur and an
incomparable professional.
Kimura straight-away tossed Gracie with his famed shoulder throw and
landed on top of him. Beu writes that Kimura stumbled and landed on
top only because Gracie relaxed. That is analogous to saying that Max
Schmeling’s jaw beat the hell out of Joe Louis’s fist during their
second fight. The two men then rolled around a bit before Kimura
secured dojime. (This is a dangerous pinning technique banned in
judo; it involves encircling the opponent’s body with the legs and
squeezing.) This rendered Gracie unconscious. Then, says Beu, Gracie
recovered, only to be headlocked so strongly that a blood vessel
broke in his ear, causing it to bleed all over Kimura’s sleeve. Three
points in as many minutes, unconscious once, and bleeding from the
ears - but no submission! So off they go again. Kimura gets an
armlock that Gracie can’t escape and finally the Brazilian’s corner
throws in the towel. The ever-credulous Beu then adds that since
Kimura had never been extended beyond three minutes before and Gracie
had gone thirteen, Gracie had held his own against the very best that
Japan had to offer.
This is nonsense. Kimura nearly kills Gracie, yet Gracie is the
winner? Among Kimura’s many victims, I would guess that many went
beyond three minutes. After all, this was pro ‘rassling for a crowd
that didn’t like thirty-second falls. As for Kimura having never gone
beyond three minutes, note that the bout in Hawaii lasted eight
minutes, while his 1949 draw with Ishikawa went fifty minutes. That
is the second-longest match on record. The longest match was an 1886
shiai between Sakujiro Yokoyama and Hansuke Nakamura that lasted 55
minutes. That contest was so fierce that in the end the officials had
to literally pry the combatants’ fingers off the other’s jacket.
Now what does the Gracie film show? It shows professional doctoring.
All the telling points Beu grudgingly acknowledges have been cut out.
This is what I saw in the less than two minutes left in. Kimura and
Gracie take hold. Kimura blasts Gracie to the mat with a large outer
reaping (o-soto-gari). Unafraid of Gracie’s chokehold, he follows him
down and controls him the rest of the way. I thought Kimura could
have ended it sooner, but "accommodated" by permitting some rolling.
Of course, this could have been a function of the editing. But even
in the bit that the Brazilian censors have left us, Kimura is so
overwhelming that one can only shudder at the stuff left on the
cutting room floor.
Another indication of accommodation is the first technique Beu
mentions, the famed shoulder throw, after which Kimura lands on top
of Gracie (significantly, not shown in the film). Donn Draeger once
told me that, during the Thirties, Kimura would lie down on his back
and let anyone in Japan have one of his arms - and still escape.
Kimura was a bear down there. Therefore, with Kimura at 220 pounds,
there was no 140 pound human anywhere in the galaxy who could have
lasted - without Kimura’s help.
I don’t want to be too harsh on Gracie. I’ll stipulate that,
irrespective of rules, he would have beaten film stars Bruce Lee and
Chuck Norris in a couple minutes, and the rest of the larcenous la-la
land fighters from Hollywood (Seagal, Schwarzenegger, Stallone, ad
nauseum) together in the same ring in under five. But, without
jackets, let him face a freestyle wrestler like Dan Gable and he
would fall fairly quickly. Give him a jacket, and he would have
fallen for good sambo players like E. Chumakov, and did fall for a
judo man named Kimura"
brutalnie traktuje o historii słynnych walk Helio Gracie z Kato i
Masahiko Kimurą.Autor uparcie twierdzi jakoby pierwszy przegrał przez
własna głupotę a drugi nie walczył na 100%.Poza tym krytykuje mocno
umiejetności Helio w walce ( zarowno w stojce jaki w parterze) i oskarża brazylijczyków o "cenzurę" w relacji z walk i przekłamywanie faktów.
Wiec jak to w końcu było?Eksperci proszeni o odpowiedź(hmm Boruta???).
SOGi itp jeżeli wam zależy będą za każdy
post- zwyczajowo.
Jedno ale- tekst jest po angielsku, nie miałem czasu go tłumaczyć ale
chyba wiekszośc poradzisobie bez problemów.
oto on:
"In the same year, Kimura fought Helio Gracie in Brazil. Since the
Gracie family is all the rage these days, it may be well to analyze
the account by Don Beu, "Put to the Test: The True Account of Gracie
Jujutsu’s Toughest Proving Ground," that appeared in the February
1990 issue of Karate/Kung-fu Illustrated. Graham Noble sent me a copy
of the article, adding that it was skewed toward Gracie. How right he
was. It’s "as biased as a scream from the dentist’s chair," to borrow
journalist Bugs Baer’s famous line.
Before he could fight Kimura, Gracie first had to fight another
Japanese named Kato, who purportedly weighed 180 pounds. Beu writes
that they first went to a draw - Gracie had a broken rib - and so
they went again. I have seen this bout in the film Gracie Jiu-Jitsu
(1988) and it is underwhelming. Gracie towered over the short Kato,
and though it is difficult to tell in a gi, I would say that Kato may
have had ten pounds on the 140-pound Brazilian, but certainly not
forty.
They began with Kato being conservative, biding his time. Kato moved
well; Gracie stood and moved like an amateur, foolishly picking his
feet up. He tried a couple of weak sweeps, a knee wheel that wasn’t
even close, and then turned into Kato for an attempt at a frontal
throw. When Kato didn’t budge, he jerked back out of it. Just after
this, Kato threw Gracie with what looked like a shoulder technique
(seoi-nage), a beautiful throw that bounced Gracie off the ropes and
back into the ring. A little higher and he would have been out into
the crowd and in great danger. Kato then threw Gracie under the ropes
using a scratchy tai-otoshi. After this, the referee brought the two
men back into the center. Near the ropes, Kato nailed Gracie with
another pretty shoulder throw. Here Kato made a fatal error. He
should have continued throwing Gracie at will until the Brazilian
quit. But on top of Gracie after the throw, he foolishly got into
groundwork and was caught by Gracie’s powerful choke from underneath.
Next it was Kimura’s turn. Going into this match on October 24, 1951,
Kimura was nine years younger and eighty pounds heavier than his
Brazilian opponent. Given Kimura’s unbeatable skill in both standing
and ground wrestling, one could reverse those figures, making Kimura
older and lighter, and he still would have prevailed. As it was, the
greater mass and youth promised certain doom for Gracie. That’s my
physiological judgment. Philosophically, bear in mind that there is
no distance greater than that between an accomplished amateur and an
incomparable professional.
Kimura straight-away tossed Gracie with his famed shoulder throw and
landed on top of him. Beu writes that Kimura stumbled and landed on
top only because Gracie relaxed. That is analogous to saying that Max
Schmeling’s jaw beat the hell out of Joe Louis’s fist during their
second fight. The two men then rolled around a bit before Kimura
secured dojime. (This is a dangerous pinning technique banned in
judo; it involves encircling the opponent’s body with the legs and
squeezing.) This rendered Gracie unconscious. Then, says Beu, Gracie
recovered, only to be headlocked so strongly that a blood vessel
broke in his ear, causing it to bleed all over Kimura’s sleeve. Three
points in as many minutes, unconscious once, and bleeding from the
ears - but no submission! So off they go again. Kimura gets an
armlock that Gracie can’t escape and finally the Brazilian’s corner
throws in the towel. The ever-credulous Beu then adds that since
Kimura had never been extended beyond three minutes before and Gracie
had gone thirteen, Gracie had held his own against the very best that
Japan had to offer.
This is nonsense. Kimura nearly kills Gracie, yet Gracie is the
winner? Among Kimura’s many victims, I would guess that many went
beyond three minutes. After all, this was pro ‘rassling for a crowd
that didn’t like thirty-second falls. As for Kimura having never gone
beyond three minutes, note that the bout in Hawaii lasted eight
minutes, while his 1949 draw with Ishikawa went fifty minutes. That
is the second-longest match on record. The longest match was an 1886
shiai between Sakujiro Yokoyama and Hansuke Nakamura that lasted 55
minutes. That contest was so fierce that in the end the officials had
to literally pry the combatants’ fingers off the other’s jacket.
Now what does the Gracie film show? It shows professional doctoring.
All the telling points Beu grudgingly acknowledges have been cut out.
This is what I saw in the less than two minutes left in. Kimura and
Gracie take hold. Kimura blasts Gracie to the mat with a large outer
reaping (o-soto-gari). Unafraid of Gracie’s chokehold, he follows him
down and controls him the rest of the way. I thought Kimura could
have ended it sooner, but "accommodated" by permitting some rolling.
Of course, this could have been a function of the editing. But even
in the bit that the Brazilian censors have left us, Kimura is so
overwhelming that one can only shudder at the stuff left on the
cutting room floor.
Another indication of accommodation is the first technique Beu
mentions, the famed shoulder throw, after which Kimura lands on top
of Gracie (significantly, not shown in the film). Donn Draeger once
told me that, during the Thirties, Kimura would lie down on his back
and let anyone in Japan have one of his arms - and still escape.
Kimura was a bear down there. Therefore, with Kimura at 220 pounds,
there was no 140 pound human anywhere in the galaxy who could have
lasted - without Kimura’s help.
I don’t want to be too harsh on Gracie. I’ll stipulate that,
irrespective of rules, he would have beaten film stars Bruce Lee and
Chuck Norris in a couple minutes, and the rest of the larcenous la-la
land fighters from Hollywood (Seagal, Schwarzenegger, Stallone, ad
nauseum) together in the same ring in under five. But, without
jackets, let him face a freestyle wrestler like Dan Gable and he
would fall fairly quickly. Give him a jacket, and he would have
fallen for good sambo players like E. Chumakov, and did fall for a
judo man named Kimura"
Krzysztof Piekarz
Marian.B.
grimper
